Via Media Podcast, Episode 36 Eschatology: Heaven Alister McGrath March 5, 2020 https://www.beesondivinity.com/the-institute-of-anglican-studies/podcast/2019/eschatology-heaven Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: Welcome to Via Media. This is the first in our three part series on eschatology. We are thrilled to have Alister McGrath with us again. You might have heard our previous series on nature and creation, in which we discussed natural theology with Dr. McGrath. Now, in case you didn�t hear that, let me introduce Alister McGrath. He�s a northern Irishman and one of the foremost Anglican theologians in the world. He�s an Anglican priest. He�s an intellectual historian. He�s a scientist. He�s a Christian apologist. He�s a public intellectual. He holds the professorship in Science and Religion in the faculty of Theology and Religion at the University of Oxford. He�s professor of Divinity at Gresham College. He�s written more than 50 books. One book that I came across is titled, �A Brief History of Heaven,� by Alister McGrath, published by Blackwell some years ago. So, we are going to ask Dr. McGrath some questions from this book about Heaven. Welcome, again, to Via Media, Alister. McGrath: It�s very good to be with you. McDermott: Alister, your book, and I�ll read the title again, �A Brief History of Heaven,� a wonderful little book, traces the ways that western literature, both secular and religious, treat Heaven. Now, you do that primarily through images, you say, such as the images of kingdom, city, and garden. Can you explain for us a little bit about each of those images and how each one of those images has helped Christians understand the biblical vision of Heaven? McGrath: Well, let�s begin just by saying how important it is that scripture uses images to think about Heaven. Because the thing about an image is that you ... it�s irreducible. You cannot actually get it absolutely right. There�s always more to it than what you realize. The danger in thinking about Heaven is that we end up with a way of thinking which actually is terribly like what we see around us in the world. The key point here is that these images are saying it�s like that, but it�s far, far more than that. So, in talking about kingdoms, cities, and gardens � these are helpful, but they do not in effect define what Heaven is. It�s always more than these. If we think about these, I mean for me the idea of kingdom and garden are particularly important, but I�ll come back to kingdom. Basically, the key point to be made here is that these articulate something that really helps us grasp something about what Heaven is all about. A city, the New Jerusalem. It�s all about a place of safety; a place where we really belong; a place where we have citizenship, which means we have the right to be here. We�re not some kind of gate crashers, we have the right to be there. That�s why Paul sees the citizenship of Heaven, really, as so important. Of course the idea of the garden, which comes from the opening chapters of Genesis. A garden is, in effect, a place of rest, plenty, peace. It�s a place where we go in the shade of the evening to find peace. That�s such an important point. It�s about rest. It�s about coming home to God in the shade of the evening. It�s a wonderful image. And the idea of the kingdom, which is very much this idea that there is a ruler who organizes things and poses order and we are part of this orderly way of being. All of these are saying Heaven is about entering God�s presence and above all entering a place in which we are safe, secure, welcome, and wanted. Those are such important themes to explain in relation to this idea of Heaven. McDermott: Well, thank you. Now, you also say fairly early on in the book that the Old Testament depiction of Jerusalem has been particularly important for the on-going development of the Christian vision of Heaven. What aspects of the image of Jerusalem in the Old Testament have been especially resonant? McGrath: I think there are several, and the one that stands out perhaps is the idea of Jerusalem as a walled city. Time and time again in some of the prophetic writings, some of the Psalms, you�re invited to walk around Jerusalem and appreciate the strength of its walls, its balustrades and so on. The point being made: this is a place of safety. Again, if you think about the image of enemy armies advancing on Jerusalem; you come in from the countryside, you go through the gates, the gates are shut, you�re inside, and you�re safe. That�s such an important instinct. But of course Jerusalem is more than just a safe city, it�s a place where God dwells according to many of the Psalms. Again, that�s so important because Heaven is the place where God is going to be known in all of God�s fullness. It�s not just coming home to a place of security, it�s God is there. God is going to be with us. We are going to be with God. If you look at some of the medieval depictions of the New Jerusalem, one of the things they keep bringing out is that the God who we long for in this life is really physically present with us. We are going to enter into the presence of the one who we love and long for. It�s coming home. Those are such rich ideas. McDermott: Then when you move to the New Testament you talk about the New Jerusalem and of course that�s such a powerful image. What connection, Alister, do you see between the earthly Jerusalem, today let�s say, and the New Jerusalem? I shouldn�t say the �earthly Jerusalem� today, it�s the earthly Jerusalem of John�s era, John the author of the Book of Revelation, at the end of the Bible. What connection do you see between his earthly Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem in his mind as he writes the Book of Revelation? McGrath: I think many Christian writers have reflected on that question. One of the points they make is that the Christian hope is not anchored to any particular place on earth. It is, in effect, signaled by something on earth, but it�s located elsewhere. In other words, the Christian hope is not for the re-possession of an earthly Jerusalem. It is for entering the place which the earthly Jerusalem signposts. It�s pointing beyond itself. It�s giving us indications of what the New Jerusalem is going to be like. If we take up the themes we find, for example, in the revelations of John the divine. The New Jerusalem is a place where there is no more suffering, no more pain, no more death. It�s about entering into a different place where all the old enemies - illness, death, and so on - are banished. We are going to be with God forever. That, for me, is a very reassuring point. I�m not surprised that so many Christians read that wonderful passage about the New Jerusalem at a funeral service, because it�s such a powerful and visual articulation of the Christian hope. McDermott: Then you move, in your book, through the history of Christianity treating significant thinkers as they�ve talked about Heaven. So, you discuss Augustine and his portrait of Heaven as famous for lacking sex - now, not to be confused with sexuality - and emphasizing rest. Why was this particularly resonant, do you think, in medieval Christianity? McGrath: Yeah, it�s a great question. I think Augustine would probably be quite surprised and probably a little bit worried (laughs) in talking about Heaven we focus on the issue of sex in Heaven. Because in many ways he was simply answering a possible objection to the existence of Heaven by reflecting on sex as a very important place to play on earth, but it�s no longer necessary because we�re in the presence of something that�s even better than that. Maybe that�s an argument for someone who is a secular person. The Christians say that Heaven is even better than sex. That might be a way of piquing their interest. But what Augustine is saying, and why the medievals find it so interesting, is basically that it�s all about this idea of love. It�s saying love really, really matters. It doesn�t get bogged down, it doesn�t get messed up by issues of sex, it�s about something that�s pure, that�s wonderful � something which sex may point towards, but actually it�s far more important. It�s about this absolute love between two people. A bit like Dante and Beatrice. This sense of an absolutely passionate love, which isn�t sexual. Of course, our culture finds that a very, very difficult idea to understand, but Augustine is saying love is far more than sex. That is a very important point to try and make in a culture that�s deeply sexualized. But nevertheless the importance in medieval Christianity, I think, is that it�s very much reminding us that we are created by God, but also loved by God. As a point, to be loved by God is not about being a sex object it�s about being someone of such intrinsic importance in God�s eye that we matter profoundly and God does everything possible through the death and resurrection of Christ to bring us safely home to him. Now, that is a very important thought and the medievals thought it was so important and I think they were right. McDermott: Then you move on in your book to later medievals and this interesting book called, �The Pearl,� a 14th century reflection that was written in England on Heaven as consolation after death. Can you talk about that a bit? McGrath: Yes, �The Pearl� is an English poem. Incidentally, a great favorite of JRR Tolkien who wrote a rather nice article about it. It�s all about a father who was absolutely disconsolate at the early death of his daughter. And he has this vision and he sees her in Heaven. Initially he is so relieved she�s all right. Then he says, well, what�s she doing there? What did she ever do to get into Heaven? (laughs) He started to get annoyed with her. The poem, in many ways, is about the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. That God promises to give certain things, no matter how long they work in the vineyard, but God�s promises not our merits, being the absolute foundation of our salvation. The point being made in the poem is that this young girl is there because God promised her salvation, not because she�s earned it. The father has to re-think everything to get his head around the idea that actually his daughter is rightly in Heaven. So, in many ways, it is a reassurance that there is a Heaven and also a critique of this intrinsic human idea that we have to earn our way into Heaven. I�m recording this here in England, and in Yorkshire we have this very famous saying, �You don�t get out for nought.� You don�t get something for nothing. That is the slogan, that�s the heart of Pelagianism � we earn our salvation. �The Pearl� is saying there is hope but you don�t have to earn that hope, you trust in God and that God is going to deliver. McDermott: Then you move to the Reformation and the 17th century, the century after the Reformation, and John Bunyan�s famous Pilgrim�s Progress that sketches Heaven as the end of pilgrimage and a source of hope. Tell us just a bit about Bunyan�s vision of Heaven. McGrath: Well, Bunyan�s �Pilgrim�s Progress� is probably one of the most influential spiritual writings in the English language. It tells a story. It tells a story of the journey from the City of Destruction to the Heavenly City. It�s all about how the goal of finally arriving in the New Jerusalem sustains you and informs you as you walk through the wilderness of this world. It�s a very simple book. It really is aimed at ordinary people who are perplexed by the ambiguities of this world, and reassures them that the hope of Heaven is there. It�s a very important book because it allows you to see spiritual battles, doubts, temptations in the framework of this journey from where we are to the New Jerusalem. Many people just find it so helpful to have a map for their journey. In many ways what Bunyan is doing is undertaking, if you like, theological cartography. He�s drawing a theological and spiritual map. He�s saying, �There�s where you are. There�s where you are going. This is what you�ve got to pass through. Now let me help you do this.� It�s so beautifully narrated that actually even somebody who is not very theologically literate can see exactly what he is getting at and use Bunyan to really help you think about how you approach life�s struggles and doubts in the light of this all consuming hope of one day entering the New Jerusalem. McDermott: This discussion of Heaven is so pastorally significant, isn�t it? Just a little while ago I talked with a young father. He and his wife had lost a baby, born dead, came full term. He was asking me what I thought, as a priest, about how he and his wife would see their baby daughter in Heaven. He was asking me about what age will she be, what will she look like? So, Alister, you reflect in this book on that, too, about how the Christian tradition has thought about bodies in Heave, their shape, and their age. What kinds of things has the traditions said about that? McGrath: Well, I think it�s very natural for us to reflect on these questions because we want to visualize Heaven. We visualize the things that really matter. So, naturally, we�re going to say, well, it�s like the New Jerusalem. But what do we look like? That�s a very important question. Certainly Christian theologians have given this much thought. I�ll tell you what some medieval writers said, and see if this makes any kind of sense. Medieval writers said we need to think about what people are going to look like in Heaven. So, we need some kind of ideal for what the human body should look like. Of course they took the idea that Christ was about 30 years old when he was crucified. So, that is the perfect age of humanity. They developed two ideas, which are really interesting. Number one, that in Heaven we will look as we did or would have looked when we were 30 years old. Now, it�s a really interesting point, if you look at some medieval depictions of Heaven and look at the people inside you don�t see old people, you see people who are, well, a 30 year old. It�s very, very interesting, but more importantly ... that�s the first point � age 30 ... But secondly, with all the blemishes removed. In other words, these are reborn. These are people who have entered a new mode of existence. They�ve left behind deformities, whatever it is, and they entered into Heaven as they should be. They�re redeemed, they�re renewed, they�re purified, the Balm of Gilead has been applied, they�ve been made whole. It�s very, very significant. Again, it doesn�t prove anything, but it does help you to visualize what Heaven is going to be like. That, I think, is really helpful in beginning to think about this. McDermott: Alister, in closing, the Church faces all sorts of challenges today. A tsunami of secularism has swept over the Church in the global north. While in the global south the Church is booming, and faith is the name of the game. But not only Christian faith, Islamic faith principally. What do you think the Church particularly needs to know about Heaven in this new century? McGrath: I think we need to rediscover a truth about human nature, which is that we need hope. It cannot be a hope that we simply invented, a sort of pseudo optimism that says �things are going to get better.� They�re not. I mean, that�s a kind of thing you find some secular writers who in effect� Steven Pinker�s recent writings are hopelessly naive about the future. People are really looking for hope and secular ideologies really don�t offer any. I think it�s very important for a Christian to say there is something we can offer. It�s not about escapism, it�s about a way of looking at things which makes sense of the way things are now, but also shows us there�s something still better to look forward to. People need to hear that. They are intrinsically skeptical. They�re going to say, �this is too good to be true.� We need to sit down and talk them through why it�s so important, why it�s so integral to the New Testament, and be able to say to them that this is part of what Christianity is all about � a savior who has suffered and who entered Heaven to bring us in his wake. In other words, we know suffering, we hope to be with Christ. I think one of the things we need to recover is a very strong sense that it�s hope, not optimism, that�s really important. A writer that I haven�t mentioned at all in this interview is Cyprian of Carthage, who of course as you all know was martyred for his faith in 258, I think it was. He had this wonderful slogan, �Heaven is our homeland.� Paradise is our native land. That�s where we belong. And we are here on an outpost. We�re going home one day. In English language there are fewer richer words than �home.� I�m going home. These days, I�m afraid, a lot of people go to a home, but Christianity is saying, no, no, no, we�re going home, to a place of safety, rest, where we belong. That is a powerful vision and the Church really needs to rediscover it and its just waiting for us to rediscover it. McDermott: We�ve been talking with Alister McGrath, the great Anglican theologian at Oxford University in England about his wonderful little book, �A Brief History of Heaven.� Thank you, Alister, for joining us. Thank you, out there in the listening audience, for tuning in. McGrath: It�s been a pleasure to be with you. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Via Media.