Via Media Podcast, Episode 37 Eschatology: Hell Michael McClymond March 12, 2020 https://www.beesondivinity.com/the-institute-of-anglican-studies/podcast/2019/eschatology-hell Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: Welcome to Via Media. This is the second in our eschatology series, a three part eschatology series, that we started last week with Alistair McGrath on Heaven. Today we�re speaking to Michael McClymond on Heaven and Hell with particular stress on Hell and the second coming of Christ. Let me introduce our guest, Michael McClymond, the distinguished historical theologian at St. Louis University. He is the author of a blockbuster that came out about a year ago called, �The Devil�s Redemption: An Interpretation of the Christian Debate Over Universal Salvation.� I won�t go through all the books that he�s published. I will note, one, that I understand, Mike, I�ve heard Christianity Today gave it the 2013 top award for theology and ethics. This was called, �The Theology of Jonathan Edwards,� that you co-wrote with somebody. Then I want to call our listener�s attention to a book I�ve used with students that I find to be the best accessible short history of historical scholarship on Jesus. The title is, �Familiar Stranger: An Introduction to Jesus of Nazareth.� It was published by Erdmann�s back in 2003. It�s still in print. It�s really, really worth getting. So, welcome to Via Media, Dr. McClymond. McClymond: Well, thank you, Gerry, and yes I can call you Gerry. I think I know you well enough to use a first name. I appreciate your promotional comments. Let�s just say some of my theological excesses in the Jonathan Edwards� book were corrected by a colleague, now at Beeson Divinity School. McDermott: (laughs) Maybe so, maybe so. Mike, you are well known now for writing what has been called �the definitive book on the history of universalism.� The idea, for our listeners who might not be so familiar with this term, universalism, it�s the idea that all human beings and perhaps even the devil himself will be saved eventually. That none will be lost eternally, which means to be shut out of the presence of God. You have show, Mike, in this monumental book that is being reviewed everywhere now, and I want to point out to our listeners, a terrific article, summary of the book, that was published by First Things, the great journal on religion and public life, back in November or December? McClymond: December. McDermott: With a terrific title, �The Opiate of the Theologians.� So, you have shown in this monumental book, �The Devil�s Redemption,� that this idea of universal salvation collapses not only exegetically and historically, but also systematically. Now, Mike, I�ve heard you say lately that one cannot properly talk about Hell without first talking about Heaven, and also Christ�s second coming. So, before we talk about Hell, can you explain why you said this? McClymond: Sure. I think this is an idea that comes really directly out of scripture. We find in scripture that mercy and grace hold priority over God�s wrath and judgment. For example, in Ezekiel 18:32 the Lord says I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies. Therefore, repent and live. As you know, Gerry, this is a verse that Jonathan Edwards cited to point out that God is always presented in scripture showing grace with pleasure, with delight, and is exercising judgment with displeasure. God is inclined to give pleasure. Also, John 3:17. A lot of people know John 3:16, but what does the next verse say? �For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him.� Then there are the texts that speak of God�s universal desire for salvation, not wishing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9, �God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.� 1 Timothy 2:4. Then we look at the end of the New Testament. There are about two chapters devoted to expositing Heaven, what Heaven is, and there are just a couple of verses on Hell. So, there seems to be an imbalance here. Now, I would balance this out, though, by saying that if when the light of Christ comes into the world, that light casts shadows. That seems to be inevitable, according to teaching of John 3. The very same passage that said the Son did not come to judge, but to save the world. Also says that this is the judgment that the light has come into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the light for their deeds were evil. As Leon Morris said, I think aptly many years ago, it�s not the purpose of the light to cast shadows, but if the light shines, shadows will be cast. So, that�s my way of thinking about ... let�s begin by talking about the love of God, the good news of his grace, but not ignoring the shadow side of that truth. McDermott: Right. Okay. If we could go back to your book now, �The Devil�s Redemption.� How has it been received, Mike, in the guild? McClymond: Well, it is still in process of being received in the guild. I think the most significant review in an academic context ... and by guild I understand you�re asking about sort of academic theologians at sort of universities? McDermott: Yes. McClymond: The academic guild, university-based theologians, had only a limited amount to say about the book. There�s a review in the Journal of Modern Theology by Roberto De La Nuval, someone I don�t know. He�s very complimentary, even though he as an author I think seems to be a universalist. But he says it�s a monumental book. He says everyone of whatever point of view needs to read the book. Then he points out the scope, the scale that I�ve gone all the way from the Palestinian monasteries of the 6th century up to very recent popular authors and all the people in-between. So, I think honestly that for the academic theologians to wrestle with the book they�re going to have to deal with issues of methodology. The whole approach taken to theology. One of the things that I show is that many of the leading thinkers of the 20th century who either taught universalism or incline that way � that would include Barth, Balthazar, Bolgokov, Tillic, Rahner, Moltmann, and more recently David Bentley Hart. They all engaged in speculation that went clearly beyond the letter of scripture and beyond the indications of the earlier tradition. It might take too long to go into the details there, but I think the academic theology world is not going to be able to grapple with the book without maybe looking in the mirror and asking some hard questions about itself right now. McDermott: So, that�s what you mean by method, speculation, beyond the biblical text? McClymond: Well, to give just one example. Karl Rahner, very prominent Catholic theologian. He says, at the moment of death the human self becomes cosmosized. He becomes identified with the universe as a whole. And then there�s this final moment where everyone has the opportunity to see their whole life laid out before them. God offers them mercy and they give it either a thumbs up or a thumbs down to God. Now, that�s a wonderful idea that ... you call it the final option theology. But there isn�t the slightest thing in scripture to support it, it�s not supported by Catholic or Protestant tradition. That�s what I mean by speculation. The idea kind of comes out of Kantian philosophy, honestly, I think. But that is presented and do we really want something as important as final salvation to hinge upon some theory that a theologian came up without any real basis in scripture or tradition? I don�t think so. McDermott: Yeah. So, we�ve talked about the academic guild. What about beyond the guild? What kind of reviews and responses is the book getting? McClymond: Well, the first responses were from the evangelical world. Let�s see, I think the very first interview I did with John Piper and Desiring God Ministries, Christianity Today did an in-depth article; somewhat later than that Credo Magazine. So, there�s been a response there. Then the Catholic Charismatic community, beginning with Ralph Martin, has sort of invited me in as a non Roman Catholic to speak to them. I did a presentation on universalism in Detroit. The Bishop of Montreal flew in to be part of that, because he is writing on universalism. Ralph Martin has been concerned for many years about a kind of assumed universalism within the Catholic world, especially among other Catholics � everyone is okay, people ... everyone who is sincere in some way, in whatever their religious belief will be okay. So, Ralph did a book, �Are There Many That Are Being Saved?� I think is the title. But he�s been concerned about that, so he saw me as an natural ally to him and his own struggle within the Catholic world. McDermott: Yes, were you going to say something else? McClymond: There have been other interesting response, like David Bentley Hart, who said a fun line, that I am �guilty of ten foil hat wearing conspiricism,� which is a very colorful phrase that I have a great mental image on that. It just doesn�t really correspond to very much within the book. (laughs) McDermott: (laughs) Now, for the sake of our audience, who is David Bentley Hart? McClymond: Well, David Bentley Hart is together will John Millbank of England as probably one of the two best known academic theologians. So, Hart did a book based on his doctoral dissertation called, �The Beauty of the Infinite.� That came out maybe about 15 years ago. Based upon the review of that book there were people who were saying this is the leading theological thinker in the USA. Now, this just does not happen, someone who publishes their doctoral dissertation suddenly is given that kind of rave review. But so Hart wrote for many years for First Things. He had his own back page essay where he could really write on anything he wanted to write on. This is a man with a library, I guess purportedly at one point he had 20,000 books in his library, and he had read virtually all of them in multiple languages. So, he�s a very, very widely read and learned person. His new book that came out in late 2019 called, �That All Shall Be Saved,� is not just a defense of so-called hopefully universalism, that Christians should hope for this, but it is a strong assertive universalism, and in effect he condemns, to use his own phrase, �moral imbeciles,� anyone who would not affirm that everyone is saved without exception. He names names, he speaks of Augustine, Aquinas, Paschal, Calvin, yes, Jonathan Edwards, they�re all completely wrong, according to David Bentley Hart. Only the Christian universalists have the proper understanding of God and the gospel. McDermott: So, let�s get into the meat of the argument. I take it that you believe that Hell is real. And of course I agree with you. But how do we know, Mike? How does a Christian really know that Hell is real? McClymond: Well, we come back to the New Testament, the text of the New Testament and particularly the words of Jesus. The classic study by D P Walker called, �The Decline of Hell,� pointed out that the reason that the doctrine of Hell was so durable for so many centuries, up through the medieval ancient and into the early modern period was because it was so clearly based upon Jesus� own statements. You hear universalists sometimes making misleading statements. They�ll say, �Well, there are only 17 references to Hell in the New Testament.� And it�s true. The word �Gehenna� only appears 17 times. It does not appear in the letters of Paul. So, people say, well, Paul did not teach Hell. But in 1 Thessalonians 1 Paul spoke about eternal destruction. He used a different term. Actually, the doctrine of Hell is stronger because it doesn�t all fall under one term. There is a variety of references. There�s the word Hell, eternal destruction, the lake of fire in Revelation, the smoke of their torment, the outer darkness, the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, the worm that devours. It is actually this sort of criss-crossing and interwoven language in different New Testament passages and different authors of the New Testament that actually shows how deeply rooted the idea is in scripture. McDermott: Mm hmm (Affirmative). Was Dante right that there are different circles of Hell? Degrees of Hell, as it were? McClymond: Well, I think the idea of circles is not directly taught in scripture, but it seems to be a reasonable surmise from what scripture does state. Scripture says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23. But scripture also teaches that there are different degrees of guilt or culpability. In Luke 12:48 it says the one who did not know the will of the master and committed deeds worthy of a flogging will receive but few. Few strokes. Then it goes on and says, for everyone who has been given much, much will be required. And to whom they entrusted much of him they will ask all the more. This means the more you know, the more accountable you are before God. Actually, this should be really a warning to those who live in cultures that have been saturated with the Christian message, because such people are held to a higher level of accountability. So, yes, the idea of different degrees of culpability is quite consistent. McDermott: So, Jesus says quite a bit about Hell. It�s been my observation over the years that he�s the greatest hellfire and damnation preacher in all the Bible. Paul talks about Hell, although he doesn�t use the word Gehenna, as you pointed out. Are there other things in the New Testament that discuss or places in the New Testament that discuss Hell? McClymond: Well, the Book of Revelation very prominently. We know that there is a great deal about Hell. There�s a great deal about God�s judgment. What Revelation does is it shows the process leading up to the state of Hell, which is the hardening of the heart. The hardening of the heart. If you look at Revelation 16, the world is rebelling against God and God responds by bringing judgment, the plagues, the bowls of wrath are poured out, and it says in Revelation 16 that men, people did not repent to worship the work of their hands, to practice idolatry, to commit sin, it says, and they blaspheme the God of Heaven. So, God�s efforts, using judgment to try to bring humanity to repentance actually leads to even a greater hardening of heart. If you�re looking for an Old Testament analogy, it might be the case of Pharaoh, because Moses appears before Pharaoh and Pharaoh again and again hardens his heart, some passages say God hardens his heart, so somehow there�s a mystery of God�s will and human agency here, but in any case, Pharaoh becomes more and more hard. He has multiple opportunities to have a change of heart. In fact, at one point he does seem temporarily ... he says, �I have sinned.� It�s very interesting in the text of Exodus. He says, �I have sinned.� But then it says he hardens his heart after that. So, he hardens his heart and so ultimately he comes under judgment because his rejection is irrevocable. So, you have to see the path that is leading to this state ho help. If we look at the end of Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats passage, there is a chilling verse there, verse 46, Matthew 25:46, where Jesus says to the goats, to those on his left, he says, �Depart from me accursed ones, into the fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.� Now, here�s something very interesting. The fire, according to this verse, was prepared in the first instance not for human beings, but for Satan, for the fallen angels. The reason I name my book, �The Devil�s Redemption,� is to point out that it�s rather clear that there are some intelligent creatures that are irrevocably opposed to God that are never reconciled. There�s not the slightest hint in scripture that Satan ever repents, the demons repent. They�re never commanded to repent. So, what Matthew 25 is saying is that some human beings in their hardness of heart end up in that very condition of eternal punishment, in which Satan and the fallen angels end up as well. McDermott: Now, Mike, many Christians these days, I find, and I find this amongst quite a number of Millennials, say Hell is so negative. Why should we Christians focus upon the negative. I mean, do we really have to even think about it? Do we have to believe in it? I mean, is this really part of Christian dogma of good orthodox Christian theology? What would you say to that? McClymond: Well, I think the problem is here, to be perfectly frank, is unbelief. We don�t really believe the warnings that are coming from Jesus from the texts. If we did, we would sit up in alarm and we would begin to amend our lives and begin to talk to those around us to urge them to literally get right with God. I�m reminded of the passage of the destruction of Sodom in Genesis 19 and Lot goes to these young men who apparently were the fianc�s of his daughters, and he says, �Up, up! The city is about to be destroyed.� What does the text say? They thought he was joking. Ha, ha, ha. They laughed. They thought it was a big joke. To them, the idea of a sudden, unexpected judgment coming upon the city of Sodom was inconceivable and they ended up perishing in the city along with all the other people of Sodom. Look at the Sermon on the Mount. The very end of the Sermon on the Mount talks about the two builders, and Jesus uses the analogy of a destructive storm. I trace this analogy in scripture ... it begins ... well, I find it as early as the Book of Jeremiah as he tried to describe the storm of judgment that came in that case in the person of the Babylonian army that invaded. But Jesus says that the one who is unprepared, who has built his house upon the sand ... and by the way, if you look at the Greek here, the sand according to Robert Gundry, it�s the sand on a river bed. A dry river bed. Could you imagine a more dangerous place to build your house than a dry river bed? Arroyo as they call them in the western US, so it�s like this is where the water has flowed during the rain. I mean, if you know anything about that you know that in a rainstorm in a dry country like Israel, or southern California, there will be a sudden surge of water coming down this dry river. This is where the person has built their house. It says the rain descended. This is Matthew 7:27, and the floods came and the winds blew and burst against that house, and it fell and great was its fall. So, Jesus is speaking of the coming judgment of God as a sudden storm that comes without sufficient warning for people to prepare, and the house is wiped away. This is a warning from the lips of Jesus himself. This is a Jesus who saw the City of Jerusalem, who wept over it, wept over Jerusalem seeing the coming judgment that would come upon the city in the time of the Roman war against Jerusalem. This is a Jesus whose heart is filled with love for his people. If he is speaking to us in such plaintive tones, then we need to sit up and pay attention. The issues is that people don�t believe there�s an objective danger. If I go into a chemical laboratory and there�s a sign �Danger! Poison! Cyanide Kills!� No one is going to accuse me of being a fear monger. Or being a poisonist, because I�m saying something about the danger of cyanide. People agree that cyanide is objectively dangerous. It�s one of the most deadly substances. But the issue with regard to Hell is that people don�t believe that there�s objective danger. Therefore, if someone speaks about it they think they�re fear mongering. �Oh, you�re trying to scare people into relationship with God.� Those are the kinds of accusations that come out. McDermott: Now, Jonathan Edwards is perhaps the best known theologian of Hell in the history of Christian thought. You are a world renown Jonathan Edwards scholar. Some have said that Edwards� depictions of Hell are indicative of a fundamentalist perverse view of God. Whereas others say that Edwards� theology of Hell is among his many signs of his glory. What do you think? McClymond: Well, first of all, to go back to something you said before, because about a third of everything that Jesus says, at least in the Gospel of Mark, is on Heaven and Hell and judgment. Jesus himself would be the ultimate hellfire preacher. If there really is nothing to fear at all then ultimately the question that we have to wrestle with is not the character of Jonathan Edwards, but the character of Jesus. He would be frightening women and children with this language about a terrible outcome and the gnashing of teeth and all the other things that ... and no one can dispute that this is in the gospels, and attributed to Jesus. There really isn�t anything eccentric about Edwards� view of either Heaven or of Hell. He was in the mainstream tradition, but the thing that is unusual about Edwards is his vividness in depicting. And so if he�s right on his doctrine, then his vividness is actually not a vice, but a virtue, because at one point in his writings, he says that the things of another world do not seem real to them. Edwards is concerned that the people in his generation were drifting away, not so much explicitly rejecting Christ and the gospel, but they were drifting into a kind of worldliness in which they really didn�t think much about the life beyond. So, he deliberately used vivid language. Most famously, maybe, the spider that is dangling, that is about to be thrown off into the fire. But there�s the doctrine itself is not exceptional or unusual. Edwards at one point said it�s no more unreasonable to warn people of the danger of Hell than it would be tell someone to get out of a burning building. Again, if it�s an objective risk and danger that individuals are facing, then it is only reasonable for them to be warned concerning the danger by those who perceive that danger. McDermott: It calls to my mind, Mike, the image he uses in one of his long sermons, that of walking by a house whose second floor is on fire and people are on the first floor, and they don�t know that the second floor is on fire. And he is yelling out from the road, �Get out! If you stay there you�ll be destroyed.� And he was saying this in response to critics in his day, back in the 18th century, that he was talking too much, preaching too much about Hell. Now, Mike, this is the Via Media podcast, an Anglican podcast. It�s listened to by Anglicans and also we hope by non Anglicans. Does Anglicanism have anything particular to say about Hell? Do Anglicans themselves need to hear about Hell, in particular? McClymond: Yes. Yes, certainly, Anglicans do. There is a particular Anglican approach to some of these questions we�re discussing. There�s a tendency in British Anglicanism, particularly British Anglicanism, toward annihilationism. It�s also sometimes called �conditionalism,� the idea that the wicked cease to exist. We saw this with the late great Jon Stott at the end of his life. He made some comments indicating that he thought that perhaps those who rejected God at some point simply cease to exist. There�s kind of a tendency that way in CS Lewis, if you read his book, �The Great Divorce.� Those from Hell who go to visit Heaven, they take a bus and the visit Heaven and the grass in Heaven hurts their feet, it feels like they�re walking on pins, because they are kind of ghostly. They�re sort of not fully embodied. Kind of ghostly in their kind. Also in NT Wright, he speaks of the idea of the post human, or the X human, people who are diminished in their reality. Now, I myself have thought that maybe there�s something to this, and even in the logic of Jonathan Edwards in, �The Treatise on the End of Creation,� he speaks of how the saints in Heaven are everlastingly increasing in their weightiness, their state of glory. He doesn�t draw the conclusion, but you could flip that around and say maybe the wicked, the separated from God, are losing their substantiality, so to speak. So, I think that�s an attractive idea. I�m a little concerned, though, that this view might be minimizing the Church�s teaching on conscious suffering, conscious suffering continues. That�s of course defined as a doctrine for Roman Catholics and it�s really in the protestant creedal traditions, Lutheran Reformed, and so on. Also CS Lewis� famous statement, �The doors to Hell are locked from the inside,� that emphasizes the human choice. Look at Luke 16, though. In Luke 16 the story of the rich man Lazarus, the man in the fire wants to get out. It doesn�t seem that the door is locked on the inside. So, I think that way of understanding Hell, that some Anglicans have presented, is attractive in some respects, but it might not be fully in accord with what we find in scripture. McDermott: So, you say that annihilationism doesn�t hold up biblically? McClymond: I don�t see, yeah, I don�t see a basis for it. I think it�s less obviously problematic than universalism, but I don�t see a basis for that. The idea that the fire actually burns people up and causes them to cease to exist at all. McDermott: So, why is universalism becoming so attractive in so many circles today in the Christian churches? Evangelical churches, the Catholic Church, and even Anglican circles. McClymond: Well, you mentioned earlier my essay on First Things, people could read this online, it�s called, �Opiate of the Theologians.� What I am talking about there is a kind of culture of make-believe that we�re living in today. I think in a lot of ways culture is one that is not wanting to deal with negative consequences of our own actions. If someone does something outrageous and they�re not held to account individually, society, some people believe has caused them to act in that way. We act as if our country can borrow as much money as it wants and money doesn�t have to be paid back. That I can go out and have as many sexual partners as I want to have before I�m married and somehow that�s not going to affect my marriage relationship. I think the whole culture of abortion that we have in the US is like we�re turning our faces away. We�re ignoring the reality of human life that is being destroyed at the rate of a million fetuses per year. So, that�s the culture that we�re in right now. So, when people with that sort of mindset turn to scripture, they read the gospel story as having almost like a different ending. It�s like the crowds all applaud Jesus and crown him. You know? You would think Jesus was never crucified. McDermott: (laughs) McClymond: It�s almost as if universalism is the gospel story frozen at that moment of the triumphal entry, everyone is applauding. If we just could live in that freeze frame forever. Wouldn�t it be wonderful? The story goes on, shows us that perfect love in the form of Jesus came into the world, and he was crucified. Men loved the darkness rather than the light. Again, to go back to that verse in John 3. So, universalism is a kind of hopefulness that�s run amuck. I�m tempted to draw a political analogy, too. I was reading something the other day, it was about the disarmament movement of the 1930s. It was a labor politician, and she was giving a speech. She said, �England needs to completely disband it�s army and all of its military, and if it does that, then Hitler and Mussolini are going to follow suit and do the same thing.� There was a dissenter, his name was Roy, and he said, �Do you really think so?� And the woman said to him, the labor politician, �Oh, Roy, have you lost all your idealism?� One of the key dissenters at that time was Winston Churchill, who urged British, unsuccessfully for many years, to begin to prepare themselves � said that Hitler was going to attack. He was going to invade. That this was the plan that was evolving, but there was a kind of ... in that case a kind of hopefulness that was run amuck, where people just wanted to believe that evil didn�t exist or it wasn�t as severe as it was and if only England would show love towards Hitler�s Germany then Hitler�s Germany would respond in kind. But the lessons of history, really in this case, confirm what we find in scripture, too. Which is that evil, there is such a thing as intransigent evil that sets itself against God. The Kingdom of God comes into this world by overcoming the kingdom of darkness. To use an analogy, think of if you wanted to do urban redevelopment in some area and there�s an old warehouse that�s like just about to collapse, not even safe to go inside � no one would start building a new structure on top of that old warehouse. You�d come in with a wrecking ball. You have to clear the way out, clear out the dangerous unsafe structure to begin building. I think that�s the way the Kingdom of God comes into this world. Even though from a sentimental standpoint it seems we might not like that ... there�s something that has to be cleared out of the way before ... Babylon, or in the Book of Revelation, Babylon must be destroyed. When Babylon is destroyed in Revelation 19, what do the saints say? They say, �Alleluia.� The smoke of her torment goes up forever and ever. People shy away from at that, but Babylon was a destructive power that controlled the world, controlled the economic system, and the woman who symbolizes Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints. She�s drunk with the blood of those witnesses who died for Christ. So, Babylon has to be taken out of the way for the Kingdom of God to come in its fullness and power. And that�s the reality of evil. Not all evil yields. Just like Pharaoh. Pharaoh was not persuaded, but ultimately had to be crushed by God�s overpowering might. McDermott: Mike, you have left us with two vivid images, like your role model Jonathan Edwards. The first, I�d say, is the gospel frozen prematurely before its completion. And the second that you�ve left us with is the intransigence of evil. Thanks for being with us, Mike, on Via Media. McClymond: My pleasure. Thank you. McDermott: Thanks to all of you listening. We hope you tune in next week for our episode on Purgatory with Gerry Walls. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Via Media.