Via Media Podcast, Episode 35 Creation: Natural Theology Alister McGrath February 27, 2020 https://www.beesondivinity.com/the-institute-of-anglican-studies/podcast/2019/creation-natural-theology Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: Welcome to Via Media. This is the third episode in our series on Creation. And I am thrilled to have with us today one of the foremost Christian thinkers in the world, Alister McGrath. He�s a northern Irish theologian, probably a lot of our listeners who have read many of his books and listened to him didn�t realize he�s from northern Ireland, just like CS Lewis on whom he has written a terrific biography. Alister McGrath is also an Anglican priest. He�s an intellectual historian, a scientist, Christian apologist, public intellectual, and one of the foremost Anglican theologians in the world. He currently holds the professorship in Science and Religion in the faculty of Theology and Religion at the University of Oxford. And he is professor of Divinity at Gresham College. I must say, before I welcome him, that he�s the author of more than 50 books. Some of the ones that I particularly recommend, and I�ve profited from personally, are way back in 1993. He did a wonderful book on Apologetics, title �Intellectuals Don�t Need God, And Other Modern Myths.� Then his �Iustitia Dei� is the landmark book in the field on justification. It�s a paramount history of the doctrine of justification in the history of Christianity. His textbook, �Christian Theology,� and his companion �Christian Theology Reader,� I believe, is the bestselling textbook in theology in the world. Then, of course, we will be interviewing today about his wonderful book on Natural Theology, �The Open Secret� that I have immensely profited from myself. Finally, I do want to recommend his biography of CS Lewis: �CS Lewis: A Life,� and the subtitle is wonderful, �Eccentric Genius, Reluctant Prophet.� So, Alister, welcome to Via Media. McGrath: Well, Gerry, it�s great to be with you. McDermott: And let�s talk about this book that was published in 2008, �The Open Secret: A New Vision For Natural Theology.� You are our third discussion in a little series we are doing on Creation. I think this is a wonderful way to wrap up, because we�ve talked about Natural Theology. So, first of all, Alister, could you define for our audience what is natural theology? McGrath: Well, sometimes people say natural theology is trying to prove God from first principles, or proving God from the beauty of nature, or something like that. Those are helpful ways of understanding it, but it�s more than that. It�s really recognizing there�s some linkage grounded in the doctrine of creation between the world around us and God. Therefore maybe we start from within the Christian faith and say, look, the beauty of nature reinforces our faith, or maybe we say to somebody, look, nature is beautiful, doesn�t that suggest there might be a God? So, it�s a very rich way of in effect saying there�s a link between the natural world and the God who created it. McDermott: Alister, has natural theology gotten a bum rap in the 20th century? McGrath: It certainly has. I think a lot of people would say it is simply improper. It�s theologically irresponsible to try and prove God�s existence from nature. After all, if God reveals himself in scripture, why do we need to argue from nature to God? I want to emphasize how important that point is, and I do not think that there�s any point in trying to prove God�s existence from nature. But nevertheless there�s an apologetic task we face, which is trying to persuade people outside the Church that there is a God, this God is worth knowing, and therefore I think it�s very important to say that pointing to the beauty of nature and getting people to appreciate that. Then saying, hey, you can know the guy behind that � that�s really important. So, I think it has had a bum rap and that�s because people are very, very nervous about this idea of proving God from first principles or proving God from nature. Although some people say that�s what natural theology is, it doesn�t need to be like that. McDermott: Right. So, in �The Open Secret,� Alister, you distinguish between resonance and proof. Could you talk about that just a bit? McGrath: Sure. Resonance is saying I look at the Christian faith and I look at the world and I see they seem to be chiming in with each other. What Christianity is saying about the world seems to almost map onto the way the world is. Now that doesn�t prove anything, but it is very significant. Because it�s saying there�s some kind of deep affinity between some of the leading themes of the Christian faith, and the way the world actually is. Now, that doesn�t prove anything. But it nevertheless is saying there�s something very significant here. It�s a reason for taking Christianity seriously if you�re outside the Christian faith and of course if you�re a Christian it�s a reason for taking the whole beauty of the natural order seriously as well. McDermott: So, we talked a bit about natural theology getting a bum rap in the 20th century, and I noticed in my training in the last 35 years that theologians, particularly of one persuasion in theology, have often suggested that natural theology has always been rejected by the Orthodox theological tradition. What would you say to that? McGrath: I have to say that I just don�t see that. Now, what I see, for example, in both the Lutheran and above all reformed theological traditions of the 16th, 17th, and early 18th century is this clear idea that there is the book of scripture, there�s the book of nature, they�re both written by God, and therefore bringing these alongside each other actually makes a lot of sense. You�ll find Calvin, in effect, saying that we need to connect up the knowledge of God we have through nature with the knowledge of God we have through scripture. So, I want to say that recently, I would say since Karl Barth appeared on the scene, there�s been a lot of criticism of natural theology. Actually, I can understand that. But it�s there in the reformed tradition. It�s very important and I think that we need to take that tradition very seriously and say have they seen something that we�ve missed? McDermott: Yes, I would add that Jonathan Edwards, on this side of the pond, the great American theologian, was also a natural theologian � and I talk about that in a recent book I did called, �Everyday Glory.� But let�s go back to Barth a little bit, if we can, Alister. What role did Barth play in this last century as dismissal of natural theology? McGrath: We�ve got to bear in mind that Barth was really writing in the aftermath of the first World War; very suspicious of any approach to any theology which began anywhere than from God�s self revelation. He didn�t want to appeal to culture. He didn�t want to appeal to nature. He wanted to ground everything in God�s self disclosure, in Christ, and in scripture. You know, I agree with that. But it doesn�t rule out natural theology unless you define natural theology simply as proving God�s existence or determining God�s characteristics in effect by ignoring scripture. And you mentioned Jonathan Edwards, I mean, Jonathan Edwards gets it right, in my view. He in effect has this deep intuitive sense of the beauty of nature and the fact that this resonates with the beauty and glory of God. I personally would say let�s go back to Jonathan Edwards. McDermott: Well, I�m glad to hear you say that. That warms my heart, Alister! (laughs) Because I�ve done a little bit of work on Edwards and I�ll repeat what one recent book said, that of all the thinkers in the history of Christian thought, he put beauty more at the center of his vision of God than anyone else. Now, back to Barth a little bit because you have written so much about Brunner in recent years. Most people trained in theology have gotten the impression from their teachers that in the famous Barth/Brunner debate that Barth got the better of Brunner. Would you agree? McGrath: I think I would say it was a very confused debate. We�re talking about 1934, and let�s remember that Adolf Hitler has seized power in Germany. Brunner is in Switzerland, but Barth is in Germany. He can see danger signs everywhere. So, he�s very, very worried that Brunner, in effect, is a allying some kind of appeal to the state or to charismatic individuals in by the back door. Brunner, living in Switzerland, just doesn�t quite get Barth�s anxiety. So, they do shoot past each other a bit. But my own view, having worked on Brunner for many years now, is that actually what Brunner is saying is actually very similar to Calvin. He�s taken very, very seriously. Barth is hyper sensitized to this whole question by events in Germany, and rightly so. He just feels that Brunner is unaware of what he�s doing. However, Brunner I think makes some very good points that are not defeated by Barth. What I want to say is that the Barth/Brunner interaction needs revisiting. It�s not Barth flattens Brunner, it�s much more Brunner articulates an approach which Barth doesn�t really understand, and he rejects what he thinks Brunner is saying, which actually isn�t really what Brunner is saying at all. So, we need to go back to Brunner and just listen to him very carefully. McDermott: Right. It�s interesting, there was also a debate that you probably know more about that I do between Barth and Balthazar on natural theology. And Balthazar, of course the Roman Catholic Swiss theologian who interacted and appreciated much in Barth, but Balthazar defended the analogy of being, which has always been central to Roman Catholic defenses of natural theology. Barth famously dismissed the analogy of being. Did Barth properly argue ... Did Barth rightly understand the analogy of being and rightly argue against it? McGrath: I think Barth understood the analogy of being to mean an understanding of the doctrine of creation. Which meant that there were certain things in the created order which by themselves pointed towards God and was nervous that that somehow restricted God�s freedom or limited God�s self disclosure. Again, I can understand his anxiety, but I don�t think that�s what Thomas Aquinas was saying, and I�m not sure it was what Balthazar was saying either. I think that, in many ways, Barth wanted to argue that God, through revelation, establishes some kind of coordination between the world of nature and its theological significance. I can see that. But I personally think its deeper than that, that somehow the doctrine of creation, if you like, is telling you that the created order is, if you like, a collection of signs; which when rightly understood, points us towards God. Again, it�s resonance, not proof. But it does seem to me, for an apologist, it�s a very important way in leading somebody from an appreciation of the beauty of the natural order to its origin and indeed its goal in God himself. McDermott: Now, Alister, this is the Via Media podcast. It�s an Anglican podcast for Anglicans and all those who are interested in the subjects we discuss. Many of our listeners are either former evangelicals or present evangelicals who prize, of course, the authority of scripture � as we all prize the authority of scripture. Hearing this topic today about natural theology, some are probably asking where is this in the New Testament? Does natural theology have any grounding in the New Testament? How would you reply to that question? McGrath: First of all, I�d want to agree, it�s a very good question, and it�s a very important question. If I didn�t see this in the New Testament I wouldn�t be doing it. I think I see three areas where we can talk about some kind of natural theology in the New Testament. One, of course, is Acts 17. That is the very famous Areopagus address where Paul is talking to these Athenian philosophers and because they do not know the Old Testament he begins from something they do know, which is the natural order. That seems to me to be very, very important. He is saying, in effect, that nature is pointing towards the one in whom we live and move and have our being. It doesn�t prove, it suggests. Again, we have to be careful. It�s not a kind of natural theology which is saying this proves God�s existence, it�s saying nature is intimating God, as you would expect, because God has created it. So, Acts 17 is a very important starting point. Then we might, of course, go to the opening of Paul�s letter to the Romans, where, in effect, the opening two chapters, particularly chapter two, does seem to suggest that somehow by existing in this world and thinking about it we ought to have some kind of intuitive awareness of the existence of God. So that we are ... the Greek word is anapologetos ... we are without excuse. There�s no reason why we shouldn�t know there is a God, even if the full disclosure of God happens in Jesus Christ. So, for me, that�s some kind of natural theology as well. Then, I wonder, is there a third area, which is of course the parables of Christ? Again, look at how often he appeals to nature: seeds growing, that kind of thing. And that points to the Kingdom of God. I would just say there�s something here to ponder. It doesn�t prove anything, but it�s very suggestive. McDermott: Thank you for that. Now, in your chapter on natural theology and truth, you�ve got a fascinating section on mathematics. How does mathematics provide a clue that nature can give us truth about God? McGrath: Well, this is really interesting. Certainly a lot of theologians, especially those who have a mathematical background will say this is something we need to think about. Here is the question: Why is it that mathematics, which we might think is the free creation of the human mind, seems so able to describe the complexities, the deep structure of the natural world? Why has that happened? Why does the human brain, the human mind, seem able to generate this framework which seems to map so easily onto the natural world? Now, of course, you might say this is just a piece of pure good luck, it�s an accident. But of course if you�re a theologian you will say, just a minute, we are made in God�s image. Isn�t there some kind of resonance between the rationality that God gives us and the act of creation and the rationality we observe in the world? If you read the 17th century astronomer, Johannes Kepler, that is the theological driver behind his astronomy � that, in effect, making us in God�s image, we can give a mathematical description of nature, because God�s rationality is reflected in our rationality, which of course is mathematical rationality. McDermott: Then you�ve got a marvelous chapter on natural theology and beauty, and we just talked about Jonathan Edwards and beauty. Can you tell us, are there ways in which beauty and nature points to beauty and God? McGrath: Well, yes, I think there are. I�d want to say that, as a former natural scientist, for me it�s quite important to make the point that actually scientists aren�t really quite sure what to do about beauty. But to the rest of us it really is important. And, you see, beauty is ... it�s not irrational, it�s not rational, it�s kind of almost like trans-rational. It�s appealing to something deep within us and saying there�s something really significant here. And beauty, the amazing thing about beauty is that in an argument I try to persuade you something is right. With beauty I say, look at that, and you say, �That�s beautiful.� That�s enormously important, I think, in doing apologetics. It�s about saying, look at the beauty of nature, that�s pointing beyond itself. Who or what made it beautiful? Why are we able to recognize that beauty? Is that just a sign of some greater beauty that one day we will behold and appreciate to its full? So, it�s a very significant line of argument. One I find really helpful in exploring with people, because they naturally respond to beauty. That�s why, again, let�s go back to Edwards � he�s really good, and of course in Lewis, the sermon �The Weight of Glory,� that is a big theme for him as well. McDermott: Yes. Your last chapter discusses natural law. How does natural law, well, maybe you should define it first, but then after you define it, how does it point to transcendent goodness? McGrath: Well, natural law is this very important idea that in some way there�s a standard of justice that we don�t create, that lies beyond us, that�s grounded in God�s own nature as a righteous judge. And therefore that we are not free to make up ideas of justice. We are not free to use self serving or privileged ideas of justice. In some way our ideas of justice have to reflect something beyond us. That idea made a massive comeback in the 1930s. I mentioned the rise of Hitler when we were talking about Barth and Brunner, but again, it�s very important because Hitler re-wrote German laws, so in effect they served Nazi interests and theologians who previously had said law is the embodiment of goodness now had to say, well, it�s not, it�s the embodiment of Nazism. Where do we find true justice? Of course, the idea of natural law made this massive come back. And I often think natural law, if you like, is a safety measure. It�s something we fall back on when we feel the governments or influential people are trying to shoe horn us into some way of thinking, which is know is wrong. There has to be something beyond us to which we can appeal as the ultimate ground of justice. McDermott: Let me close this fascinating interview with you, Alister, with a final question. Why does Christian theology need to recover natural theology, now, in the 21st century? McGrath: I think there are three very good reasons. Reason number one, because apologetics really matters. Perhaps it�s more important now than it would have been, for example, when I was growing up. We need to be able to persuade our colleagues and friends that Christianity makes sense. One of them is by saying Christianity can give a richer account of nature than, for example, scientific materialism. So, it�s really important apologetically. It�s also really important in conversations with scientists, who very often, in effect, ask natural theological questions without realizing it. Why is this world so beautiful? Why does mathematics work so well? Is there some reason for this? I think we can say, actually, there might be � let me tell you about Christianity and the doctrine of creation. But then thirdly, and perhaps for me personally this is the most important reason, it�s so interesting! And it re-connects with some really significant episodes in Christian history. I�ve mentioned Calvin, you�ve mentioned Jonathan Edwards, and there are lots of Anglicans who really developed these ideas in the 17th and 18th centuries. There�s a rich theological tradition there. We can re-engage with that and actually it will help us do theology and apologetics in today�s situation. McDermott: Speaking of Anglicans, let me tell our audience that if this podcast has interested you and you want to explore natural theology, get the book by Alister McGrath, foremost Anglican theologian, �The Open Secret: A New Vision For Natural Theology.� Thank you, Alister, for joining us today. I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. McGrath: It�s been very good speaking to you. Thank you for having me. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Via Media.