Via Media Podcast, Episode 26 Anglican Basics: The Church Stephen Gauthier December 19, 2019 https://www.beesondivinity.com/the-institute-of-anglican-studies/podcast/2019/anglican-basics-the-church Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: We want to tell our listening audience today about a great deal that they can get. Crossway Publishers is bringing out our book that I’ve edited called the future of orthodox Anglicanism at the end of February. This is a book that comes out of our Anglican theology Conference that we held here several years ago at Beeson Divinity School. Fourteen Anglicans from around the world talk about the future of Orthodox Anglicanism—-what they believe the essence of Anglicanism is and how the see the future playing out. 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This week we’re starting a series called Anglican Basics. We want to talk about the things that are Anglican distinctives, but basic to Anglicans as distinctives. And today we want to talk about church. What do Anglicans mean by “church.” And our guest is Dr. Stephen Gauthier, who is the canon theologian of the dioceses of the upper Midwest. He’s also the Director of Formation of the Greenhouse Movement. He runs a podcast with Alex Wilgus, called Word and Table. And he also directs the St. Paul House of Formation. Father Stephen, you know, you sound like you’re like God who neither slumbers nor sleeps – all these things that you do! I understand that you also had a career as a CPA for many years. You wrote the standard manual for municipal accounting, and you got your PhD in French, and you wrote your dissertation on the French Reformed Church in the 16th Century. So, let me just get right down to it. What is the Church? Gauthier: Well, on a very simple level it’s easy to start out with, it’s those who have been called. The actual word in Greek for church, ecclesia, means the ones called out. The ones called. It’s the word they used, by the way, that word that we use for the Church in the New Testament, is the word that we used translated in the Old Testament, in the Septuagint version, for the Great Assembly. It’s much more that it’s a spiritual reality. When Paul was asked, how do you describe the Church, he said this mystery is profound, I’m saying it refers to Christ in the Church. He’s referring to marriage. His idea was that Christ is ... that the Church is Christ’s bride and because it’s His Bride, it’s his body. And not as a metaphor, saying it’s a reality. We have, for example, that he’s telling a husband, why do you love your wife? When you love your wife, since you’re one body you’re loving yourself. Everyone loves his own body. This is how Christ feels about the Church. So, the understanding is the Church is Christ’s Bride and body. And it’s also the sacramental reality. How do we become part of His actual body? We’re baptized into HIs body. Something that God does. We don’t join the Church. God brings us into His body. It says “for in one spirit we’re all baptized into one body.” It’s something the Spirit joins us to. And then Eucharist, we’re told, that that bond is strengthened. It’s because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. So, the Church itself ... Christ is the manifestation of God, the sacrament of God, the visible ... something we can see of an invisible reality. The visible sign of an invisible reality. The Church is the sacrament of Christ. Christ is the sacrament of the Father, and where do we see Christ? The Church is the sacrament of Christ. And it’s an effective sign because it not only is made holy, you know, it says “by the washing of water and the word,” but it makes holy through the sacraments. Finally, I think an important thing to say is some people look upon the Church as, I love Jesus, it’s just the Church I have no use for. And actually what Paul says, he says of the Church, he describes the Church as the “fullness of Him who fills all in all.” It’s the place we find Jesus at work with all of His power, all of His authority, where Christ is at work in His Spirit. After all, where do you look for ... the Spirit means “breath.” In Hebrew and Greek it means breath or wind. So, where do you find the breath? You find it in the body. Where do we find God’s Spirit powerfully at work? We find it in His Church. McDermott: So, Father Stephen, I think you’ve hinted at it, but how is this different from the way many evangelicals think about the Church? Gauthier: Well, I think one thing would be is many evangelicals look upon the Church as a bonus plus. It’s sort of one of those things ... I compare it to coin collecting. You could be a great coin collector and not belong to a coin collecting club. (laughs) Why would you go there? Because you like talking about coins, you might learn something about ... might be a great place to swap, but it’s not essential. You could be a great coin collector just by yourself. The idea here is that the Church is essential. It’s not an add-on, that it’s all about me and Jesus and, if I have time, the Church. To be in Christ is to be in the Church. That’s where we meet Christ, it’s where we see His power, and also we have a gift. Paul says that now everyone is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. And it’s the place where we receive the gifts God has given us through others and where we give the gifts that God has given us for the Church to others. So, the Church isn’t the “plus.” That’s actually where we receive the gifts of God, starting with the sacraments and the gifts other have for us, and where we give our gift. So, again, it’s not a plus something, a bonus if you have time or if you’re interested. And I think one of the other problems is that a lot of people have taken the idea of the invisible Church ... if we say it’s everyone who has been called, well, everyone that has been baptized in Jesus is called, I guess we’re all just the Church, and it’s just sort of a way of describing all Christians as a body in aggregate. And that that somehow replaces the visible Church. I think a better way to look at it is this analogy I use. After the second World War Europe was in chaos. Millions of people had been uprooted, millions. People who were uprooted couldn’t go back to the east. A lot of Jewish families, they had to drop children off in different places because [inaudible] could take one of your kids if you don’t hide, this kind of thing. A lot of people, families were separated. Now no one doubts for a moment that everyone that shares your DNA is your son or your daughter. That’s a fact. However, that’s not the way it should be. I mean, a family is only a family in the fullest sense when they live a life together as a family. Yeah, we have the same DNA and that’s important, we’ll always be brothers and sisters and we rejoice when we see each other, but we should be living in a family. So, the visible church is where we live out that life where we live the fullness of what it means to be sons and daughters of God. McDermott: Now, Father Stephen, where do we find this particularly in the Anglican tradition, giving us this sacramental view of the Church? Gauthier: Well, I think it’s one of our insistences that we’ve had from ... for example, even at the end of the ... one of the things we’d never give up on was the notion that we had to have our connection with the Church, that the power came through our connection with the Church, and that’s why we’ve always said in all the prayer books that you have to receive ordination from a Bishop. And like after the Civil wars, we refused. We said we could not take Puritan clerics – okay, we’re willing to go with this, let’s move forward. No, they have to be ordained. They have to be part of the Church, because this is a sacramental reality, a laying on of hands, it’s a sacramental reality. It’s not simply a matter of organization. The Church is a she not an it. McDermott: So, when you talk about after the English Civil wars in the 1640s, the requirement that these Puritans if they wanted to become part of the Church ministry they had to be ordained by a Bishop. This is one way, right, in which the Anglican view of the Church affects the Anglican view of ministry? Gauthier: Yes. Because ministry is through the laying on of hands. Remember, Paul says to Timothy, “Remember the power you received in the laying on of hands.” It’s a charismatic ... Paul says there are gifts for the Church and one of those gifts, a powerful gift, is the gift of ordained ministry. Now one of the problems we have sometimes in an evangelical point is we say isn’t this at odds with our very reformational view, which we share, that all Christians share the universal priesthood of all believers? This is absolutely true. However, that’s not in contradiction to ordained ministry. I’ll give you an example from the Old Testament that I like. Remember, we’re told in the Book of Exodus that all of God’s people ... it’s a nation of priests ... and Korah, however, takes that as saying that because of that, that Korah makes the argument with Moses, “Who are you to put yourself over others?” He said we’re all, all of us, have these ... he said it was a contradiction, it was inconsistent with the view that all God’s people are priests, they have Aaron and Moses and things having a special ministry. You recall that the earth opens up and swallows Korah. Now, God didn’t actually speak to the point, but I would take that as a “no.” (laughter) So, there is no contradiction. I think one of the things that we, as Anglicans, say is that we don’t look upon the ordained ministry as taking anything away ... but we look upon it as one of the special giftings God has given ... one of the gifts He’s given, he said evangelists, apostles, evangelists ... and one of the gifts He’s given is ordained ministry to build up the Church, to equip the saints. It doesn’t replace their priesthood, but it’s an essential gift. And it’s one of the full- ... go ahead. McDermott: So, you’re helping us connect the dots here between Church and ministry. How about the sacraments? How does this Anglican view of the Church, in an organic way, pointing to the Body of Christ in a real way, how does this affect our view of the sacraments? Gauthier: Well, first of all, let’s talk about the Eucharist as probably the best place to look at this, is there’s only one Eucharist. The Eucharist is the symbol of great ... everyone participates. There’s only one Eucharist. That’s what we emphasize. In the Roman Church, the idea ... almost every Eucharist was a separate sacrifice. And we said, no, it’s a renewal. We come in across time and space to the one ... that eternal worship of God in Heaven is what happens when we have Eucharist. So, the Eucharist is the Church’s Eucharist. It’s something that cannot be separated. The Church celebrates the Eucharist, that’s why we’ve always insisted that the Church in the visible sacramental form of the priesthood; bishops and their assistants or the priests, alone, are always present to show that this is bigger. There’s an immanence. We celebrate Eucharist with the people right there with us. That’s true. It’s immanent. But it’s also transcendent. Every Eucharist is part of a Eucharist across time and space. The visible sign of that is the priesthood. Is that we never have a Eucharist without someone who is connected across time and space. Has the ordination, as we’re connected through the bishops, all the way back to the Apostles, and we’re saying this is our connection. It’s interesting that this is a point made in the New Testament. All the Church saw ... what’s clearly there as biblical scholars will tell you in the synoptic gospels, there’s a clear linkage between the feeding of the five thousand and the institution of the Lord’s Supper. There’s no question about this. Each one: Matthew, Mark, and Luke – take great pains to use exactly the same verbs in both cases. In the feeding of the five thousand he took the bread, he blessed it, he broke it, he gave it. Blessed, broke, and gave. I’m sorry, took, blessed, broke, and gave. They use exactly the same verbs with the Eucharist. Now, what’s the point? The point is we might think if we just have the last supper that Jesus was basically ... this was a one-time event. A very special event. But actually the Church always took this as being “wait a second, we’re saying it’s not the last supper it’s a perpetual supper,” and notice something that each one of the three evangelists goes out of their way to mention. They go out of their way to mention that Jesus doesn’t give the bread directly to any of the crowd. He gives it to the Apostles and they set it before the people. So, this is again the emphasis that how is this going to go across the ages will be through the Church, as represented by the Apostles. McDermott: Beautiful. Now, worship. How does this affect our view of worship? I think of so many Americans today who say, to repeat a line you just mentioned, Father Stephen, I don’t care about the Church, it’s just me and Jesus and I go on top of my local mountain and that’s where I find God and Jesus through nature. Gauthier: Yeah. No, there’s a lot of that, and I think the first way to look upon it, again, as a good Anglican is to look at the title of the prayer book. It’s the Book of Common Prayer. Worship is our common prayer, what we do together to God. In Christ we join our priesthood as part of Christ’s priesthood. Now, one of the things we miss, I think, sometimes about worship is we think of prayer as primarily about my needs. But you know we’re serving Christ, the great high priest. I haven’t personally heard Christ’s prayer to the Father, but I take it as a given He’s not spending a lot of time praying for Himself; that He’s bringing the whole world to the Father and we join in that. So, it’s our common prayer. This is why the Church is always emphasized that the “Our Father,” we never say “My Father” alone. Right? Even when we’re praying alone it’s “our Father.” We’re reminding ourselves that we’re praying with Christ, because he’s Christ’s Father, as well as ours, but that we are praying with the whole Church. So, the first thing is we have to realize when we pray, as Christians, let’s make the Christian prayer different. Everyone can pray, but a Christian’s prayer is fundamentally different, because we as Christians actually join our prayer to Christ. That’s why it’s always heard. Because the Father always hears the prayers that we pray through the Son. One of the problems we have, we finish that question with worship as doing sort of a theology of prayer, the prayer as something we do together. But we, as Americans, and anyone in the West, we live in a free enterprise system and things, and part of that is customers. Everything in our life is based on the customer model. It’s always “the customer is always right” and how are you meeting my needs? This is fundamentally how we look at the whole world. Everything is like a thumbs up or how many stars. We want to tend to go to worship and say, well, I don’t know, the music wasn’t up to speed today, the sermon could have been better. It’s like I’m being entertained and I’m giving my critical evaluation. There’s a reason we actually use the word “service,” divine service. Because—remember—the actual word liturgy means “the people’s work.” When we come to church, we’re not coming to be entertained, we’re coming to work. We’re punching in. The idea is, when we’re coming here is we are actually joining with Christ’s prayer for the world. We are there to serve the whole, all of us. We are there ... none of us are observers, we are all participants, and that’s an important fundamental difference. So, why do we have to worship together, because it’s what we do together. Fundamentally, worship is something we ... and it’s not about what I receive, it’s about what I give. McDermott: Right. Gauthier: And by the way when we give it also allows others to worship. It’s amazing how when we actually throw ourselves into worship it actually releases the gifts of others. Any prayer that’s centered on us is not about God. Again, the real trouble is how do we separate true spirituality from narcissism? And the real answer is we always focus on God. It’s not about me. It’s like Peter on the water. When he looked at Jesus he was fine. It’s when he said, “Oh, I’m walking on the water,” he started sinking. (laughs) So, spirituality isn’t about what’s happening to me. It’s not like an impressionist painting. McDermott: Maybe to go back to something you mentioned that I think is so common amongst us Anglicans who came out of the evangelical world, strictly evangelical, I mean Anglicanism in a very real sense is still evangelical, but why would we have a priesthood? Why can’t just anyone stand up there and lead? Gauthier: Well, it’s first of all the key reason is that God wanted to join His Church together. Again, He says He’s given ministries to the Church. He’s given ministries to the Church to build up the Church. It’s practical ... why does He give us a father and a mother for children? It’s for service. Why the ministry gets a bad name is sometimes we’ve looked upon ... instead of being a sacrament of the broader Church we’ve looked upon the ministry as somehow being the Church. And it plays a critical role, but that somehow everyone else is sort of the spectator ... that the real Church ... no. But they are critical to equipping the whole Church. They’re the instrument God has chosen to use for unity. That’s why the Bishop is the visible sign of unity across time and across space. McDermott. Right, and you told that excellent story, well, the biblical story of Korah and his rebellion and how that was God’s “no” to the wrong view of the priesthood of every believer. What about mission and evangelism? How does an Anglican view of the Church affect our understanding of mission and evangelism? Gauthier: Oh, big time. In two ways, I think, that immediately come to mind, is one is that if the Church is the Body of Christ, which it is, it’s really Christ. He’s our head and we’re his body. We are one. Bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh. As Jesus, Himself, explained. He said, “As the Father sent me, so I send you.” Christ, from beginning to end, was on mission. And He continues to be on mission to the end of time in His Church and His body the Church. So, mission is not a nice plus if we have extra time and things. Mission is the essence of what we do in the Church. We’re to make disciples of all nations. Secondly, I think the mistake that we often have is that we look upon the Church and mission as being separate. You know it’s like in the westerns, when the western United States was settled, at first you’d have some pioneers go out there. You’d maybe get a marshal, and only later on did you build a school house, have a permanent sheriff, and this kind of thing, and you sort of settled in. Some people look upon ... we go out there an evangelize, then later on if we get time people come and build the school house – that’s the Church. No, you can’t ... the Church is omniscient and actually the power of our missionaries come from their connection to the Church. It’s like realizing that even if they’re working in pairs out there, they’re still part of the Church. It’s like when you go to an ATM machine – the power of the ATM is because it’s connected to a bank. It’s not somehow separate from this. It’s power comes uniquely from the fact that it’s connected to a bank. The power of mission is bringing in people to the full sacramental life of the Church. McDermott: Excellent. Excellent. Gauthier: It’s not like, hey, we’re going to make you a Christian , that’s fine, if you ever get time and get enough of you, you could actually do a little more. No, this is the very essence. When you have a child, it’s all about nursing. It’s not just giving birth and then walking away. And that’s what we do every week when we have the Eucharist. Food for the journey. We’ve got to go. McDermott: Right. Excellent. Well, let’s close with one idea that is truly distinctively Anglican. I mean, Roman Catholics also believe in it. We Anglicans are reformed catholics. Small “c.” But apostolic succession. Lutherans, except or the Swedish Lutherans, don’t believe in that. And evangelicals don’t believe in that. What is the apostolic succession, and why should Anglicans believe in it? Gauthier: Okay, well, the apostolic succession is the notion that this is a charismatic ministry. When you think of a rabbi ... a rabbi is someone who is simply, in Jewish tradition is someone who has a rabbinical degree. It’s based completely on mental qualifications. It means you are capable, you are authorized, like having a law license, to practice Jewish law. And some are called, but it’s not a spiritual office, it’s basically if you’re the smartest guy in the room, so to speak, then you could be the one to consult on Jewish legal topics. The Church has never believed that. We’ve always believed that these are ministries, like with Timothy – with the laying on of hands. It’s interesting, one of the earliest writings we have in the Church is the letter of Clement of Rome talking to the Church of Corinth with, what a surprise, we’re having disputes. Some things never change. And they had thrown out their presbyters, their elders, their priests. They’d thrown them out and they just decided. And he reminds them, saying “No,” that’s not how the Church operates. This is a ministry from God that was given by the laying on of hands. So, we’re looking like it’s more than just we get together, and it’s not a matter of professional expertise. It involves that. We want people who are qualified, but it’s a matter of an actual charism of the Church. We talked about it, a laying of hands, making elders in every place. The Church has always done this by a special prayer and showing your connection to the broader Church. So, that’s the apostolic succession. It’s interesting that in the second century, third century rather, we have problems, especially with Gnostics in the west, we have Irenaeus, and the Gnostics say how do we know this or that. He said, look, here’s what we have it’s a succession. We can tell you that here are the Church’s apostles, here are the ones that they have laid hands after them, et cetera. This is the teaching they have. Like Ignatius says, where the bishop is there is the catholic Church, and that bishop was gotten through the laying of hands of other bishops. So, it’s what brings us ... it’s our connection. McDermott: Right. Do we know that this passed through the 16th century reformation and continues on down since then? Gauthier: Absolutely. For several reasons. First of all, when you look at Leo XIII’s letter challenging Anglican orders, we have ... there are basically two possible issues. One, is just completely historically discredited now. To give Leo credit, he was actually a very Irenic man. There was a question about the Hogshead Tavern, supposedly, one of the archbishops of Canterbury didn’t bother even going through a laying on of hands or a ritual, he just took his letters like a license and began practicing. We can demonstrate in documents that that’s simply—that’s simply not true. Demonstrably not true. No one seriously says that anymore who has any knowledge of history. There was a time people in good faith believed that, but we have the documents now, we have people telling us all about the ceremony, contemporaneous documents – it’s not an issue. The other issue from Leo was the idea that to have a sacrament there’s, in canon law, the ideas ... theology as well, you must have the intent to do what the Church does. This doesn’t mean perfect theology. But it means, for example, that if I’m doing a play about baptism. Let’s say I’m doing it about the conversion of Ivan of Russia, you know, to become a Christian. And I even use the right words and have water, but it’s just a play, that wouldn’t actually be a baptism because I wouldn’t intend to baptize. So, it’s not just the actions themselves, there must be an intent to be performing a baptism. His argument, Leo the XIII, his argument is that our ordinal, the language of our ordinal was defective; that it shows we were not intending to do what the Church did. A brilliant refutation of this ... first of all, our own bishops had wonderful contemporaneous ones, but I think in a book called The Old Religion, it’s a book I highly recommend to you, is he thoroughly points out that every single thing that ... if this were true, based on the Leo view, the Pope in Rome and no Roman Catholic priest in at least a thousand years has been validly ordained. (laughter) So, that’s simply not true. And for those who are really squeamish about this, we had something called the Dutch-Dutch. There were some people who got squeamish about this and so there was a break in the Catholic Church in 1870, which again the old Catholic Churches and they actually brought an old Catholic bishop into the line, lest there be any possible doubt about this. But, no, I don’t think there are serious issues. One of the signs we could say even in Rome is that when our archbishop of Canterbury, for the first time since the Reformation, came to Rome to visit the Bishop of Rome, he was presented by Paul VI of Blessed Memory, he was presented with him with a bishop’s ring and a pectoral cross, which is the symbol of the episcopate. And Romans don’t give these idly. So, even though it’s officially on the books it’s hard to get them off, everything was being given to us in the sense of that we probably could work this out. Seriously, the Catholic theologians ... The Issue of Anglican Orders is a really good book on this, from a conference, where you see the Catholic theologians ... no one seriously takes, except for these Latin rite type of Catholics now. In the actual mainstream Catholic Church, no one takes that serious now. Frankly, the only thing I think has stopped us from getting recognition was the beginning of women’s ordination. McDermott: Ah, right. Gauthier: We’re not going to get involved in that if we’re going to have women’s ordination. Otherwise, I think we’d probably be recognized right now. McDermott: Right. Well, I said that was my last question, but let me just (laughs) close with one last question. Last, last question. That I’ll have to ask you to be very brief on. Speaking of the Church and bishops, can you just speak very briefly to the idea that every local church is the bishop’s church? Something that a lot of Anglicans are not aware of. Gauthier: Yes, that’s why we are a bishop church, we used to be called Episcopalian. We’re based on the bishop. Ignatius told us, “where the bishop is, there is the catholic Church.” The ideal was that every church should be gathered around a bishop. And that was practical in the Mediterranean world, where cities ... it could actually be done. It wasn’t practical as a church spread out into the countryside and in really large cities. But they didn’t want to have every church having its own bishop, literally every congregation, because it would destroy the whole idea of unity. That it’s bigger than individual congregations. And so that’s why they decided to have a deputy, to take one of those priests that’s around one of the presbyters, around the bishop, and have him run a satellite church. So, the idea is that even though they’re there, all of us who are priests are simply deputies of our bishop. That’s why the prayer book says that if the bishop is there, he celebrates. He does ... we only do that in his absence. So, the idea is that we are placeholders, but when the bishop himself comes, he is the visible sign of unity of the Church across time and across space. McDermott: Well, Father Stephen, we’re so grateful that you gave us your time to talk to us about this Anglican fundamental, which theologians call “ecclesiology” from the word ecclesia for Church. Thank you so much. And to our listening audience, thank you for tuning in to this episode of Via Media. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. 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