Via Media Podcast, Episode 2 Michael McCylmond December 20, 2018 Announcer: The Institute of Anglican Studies at Beeson Divinity School welcomes you to Via Media, a podcast exploring the religious and theological worlds from an Anglican perspective. Here is your host Gerald McDermott. McDermott: I am delighted today to have as our guest, Michael McClymond, who is a professor of modern Christianity at Saint Louis University. He is one of the foremost historical theologians in the world. I count it a privilege to have him as a very good friend. He and I spent a year working together, writing a book titled, The Theology of Jonathan Edwards, published by Oxford University Press. It has won awards. So it's great to have you on the show today Mike. McClymond: It's good to be with you, Gerry. McDermott: Now, Michael McClymond has worked in several different areas. He's an expert in global Pentecostalism. He has worked in this relatively new field called world Christianity, looking at the history of Christianity in a way that includes the Eastern world of Christianity, and also the global South. He's obviously an expert in Jonathan Edwards. He started his career or toward the start of his career, he did a little book with Eerdmans. A wonderful little book that I have used with my students several times titled, Jesus. No I'm sorry, Mike that's not the right title, is it? McClymond: Familiar Stranger. McDermott: Familiar Stranger. Excellent introduction, academic introduction, but very accessible introduction to Jesus. Now the reason why I asked Mike on this episode is because of a powerful, powerful, extremely important book of his that is about to be released. And it's a two-volume work of about 1,400 pages I believe titled, The Devil's Redemption, and this is the first ever complete academic history of the doctrine of universalism. Now universalism is the view that everyone, including the devil, will eventually, universally, be saved. McDermott: I have read much of this. I think it's going to be a a bombshell landing on the playground of the theologians, as they said about a book that was published exactly a hundred years ago by Karl Barth, his book on the Epistle to the Romans. So I want to spend the rest of this time, most of the rest of this time asking Dr. McClymond about this book, The Devil's Redemption that is due out from Baker Academic Press in what month Mike? McClymond: Should be in May. May 2018. McDermott: Okay. So just a few months from this broadcast. Mike, what got you interested in this subject of universalism? McClymond: Well, as I look back, I can see that there were some seeds that had been planted very early on. I did a religious studies course in college, in Northwestern University. I was actually chemistry major so I just did one course in the religion department. And the professor who was a very liberal Protestant minister, former minister I guess, he at one point began to say that the New Testament teaches that everyone will finally be saved. And I was just scratching my head at this. I remember going and looking at my Bible, and because I was just beginning to learn Greek so I could read the Greek New Testament, I looked at that and I remember I was sitting in the class and I was the annoying student who's shooting his hand up all the time, asking how this could be so. And my attitude was, "Well, that's fine if you want to believe that, but don't tell me that the New Testament is teaching that." And so I guess that planted a seed. McClymond: I went to Yale Divinity School. I did actually essays on Origen, the early Christian figure and on Barth dealing with universalism in seminary. And then the more specific trigger came in 2013 with the book called, Love Wins by Rob Bell. And I remember walking up to the newsstand on ... I think it was Time Magazine, the cover story, What if there is no hell? And they put this out during holy ... In 2011, and I thought if this is seen as an acceptable evangelical view, that someone who accept scripture would also believe that everyone would be saved that, that does not bode well for the future of of the Christian movement generally, and specifically of evangelicalism. And I checked in with some others that I knew to find out who wanted to respond to this, and I didn't really realize what I was getting myself into when I started the project because it became much more complex and involved than I imagined, but that's a little bit about the background. McDermott: Okay. Thank you. So Mike, you spent years researching this. I remember talking with you about it back then, and you and I were thinking out loud that you could write up something probably in less than a year. And it took you far more than one year. In your years of researching this book, did you come upon any surprises? McClymond: Yes. there were a couple surprises. I had an aha, a light bulb moment early on when I was in deep in the depths of the Yale University library, and I had in my pocket list of Christian Universalists. Some of these are not well-known names, Jane Leade, who in London founded the Universalist Society. I had Vladimir Soloviev, a Russian thinker. I had William Law, George MacDonald. So I had this list of universalist, and I was wondering, "What connects them to one another? What do they have in common?" And I pull off the shelf the Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism. This is written not by theologians, but by historians of religion about ancient gnosticism and Western esoteric theology, and guess what? There were articles on all the Christian Universalist in there. And that was the point which I began to see that these Christian universalists through almost 1,800 years had a common ancestry and a genealogy that links them to one another. McClymond: And some of this is like detective work because I begin to find links, and connections, and took me into French Freemasonry and Jewish and Christian Kabbalah, and a lot of places where I didn't expect to go. The other surprise was how much of the paranormal, and even the occultic practices were in the background of some of the universalist. A number of them had visionary experiences. They claimed to have been brought by spirit beings to encounter Adam, and Adam told one of these universalist visionaries that he and all of his descendants would be saved. So the belief in universalism on the part of some of the founding figures was actually based directly on these paranormal experiences. McDermott: So universalism was in nooks and crannies as it were of the Christian tradition, and streams outside the Christian tradition that surprised you? McClymond: Yes. McDermott: Now today, how pervasive is universalism? McClymond: Well, part of the reason the research went on as long as it did is because I kept coming up with more literature, particularly recent literature on universalism. It's astounding how much a view that was rejected for centuries by the mainstream Christianity has be been embraced in various circles, particularly academic theology. It's almost like the hockey stick diagram, where one comes along near the baseline and then suddenly come surging up. Around 1999. there is kind of a break, and of course there are people who are defending universalism in '60s and '70s, and even back in the 1950s, particular in Germany, but really the popular literature just begins to surge in the last 20 years. So Catholicism affected by it. And Catholicism, it's maybe hopeful universalism, hoping for everyone to be saved, but maybe not asserting it. It exists in Orthodox Christianity. Mainline Protestantism, maybe before some of the others, but now evangelical Christians are being affected. McClymond: Rob Bell writing kind of for evangelicalism. There's a Pentecostal Universalist movement that's taking off. And you know, surprisingly perhaps, I'm invited to speak in South Africa the same month the book comes out to a group of the African leaders, guess what the theme of the conference is? Universalism, and the uniqueness of Christ. So African Christians are grappling with something that has been affecting Western theology in recent decades. McDermott: Now, it seems to me Mike, and tell me what you think of this that one reason why universalism is becoming increasingly popular, even in the evangelical theological world is because of the notion that I have discovered to be fairly common in the theological world, that if you're a generous Christian, and I use the word generous because that's the adjective that's often used, who really believes in love and you love all your neighbors, and particular your non-Christian neighbors, that to entertain the possibility of universalism is almost an ethical obligation, that you ought to hope for the salvation of all. And I find that it's often implied, if not asserted, that the scriptures teach us that we ought to hope if we truly are loving Christians for the salvation of all. How would you respond to that? McClymond: Well, I think to bring this to sort of every day life, if someone were dying of cancer in a hospital, the physician could tell them that they're just about to be released, "Oh, you're going back to your family next week." Smile. Would that be a generous response? Would that be loving? Is it ungenerous to tell someone to get out of a burning building? I don't think so. See, I think that this idea of generosity or this sort of attitude affect that one has in talking about final salvation, it really deviates away from the central question, which is, is there really an objective danger, a genuine soul threatening risk for someone who consciously, deliberately rejects the message of salvation in Christ? McClymond: And the New Testament I think is very clear. Luke 13:24, Jesus responds to someone, are there many who are being saved? And Jesus says, "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you will seek to enter and will not be able." So if truly no one is in any risk, any danger at all, then I think Jesus himself would have to apologize for some of the things that he said, because there are unnerving things that are in the gospels attributed to Jesus. And then conversely, if Jesus was right in the warnings that he gave concerning the danger of being separated from God, then that mean that today's Christians were grievously mistaken, if we think no one is at risk. McDermott: Now, let's get down in the dirt as it were of the New Testament. What sorts of things does Jesus say about this? McClymond: Well, probably the clearest passage is in Matthew 25, and this of course is often appealed to just because it's so clear. The sheep and the goats passage, and in this passage there was a judgment of individuals. They are separated into two groups, and the terrible words that are spoken of course by the Savior, by Jesus himself, he speaks ... He uses ... Specifically refers to the son of man, but everyone interprets this in reference to Jesus himself. A self-reference he said, "Depart from me accursed ones, into the fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." And it speaks of them going into everlasting destruction, and others into everlasting punishment, others into everlasting life. McClymond: It's very hard to escape the wording that's contained there. What's interesting about it as well is he said, "The fire was prepared for Satan." It wasn't even a fire prepared for human beings, it was prepared for Satan, but some human beings have seemingly shut themselves out from God's grace to the extent that they share a common fate with Satan. McDermott: Now Mike, when I have discussed universalism with some theologians, these theologians have replied to me, "Oh Gerry, it's not all that significant, it's relatively harmless. It's a matter for eschatology, and eschatology is not at the center of Christian theology." What do you think of that? Does universalism have any impact upon other perhaps more central Christian doctrines? McClymond: Well, I do have some views on that as you might expect, and I think the book makes the argument pretty plain. First of all, I would acknowledge that universalism, to put it in terms of like buying a house that has great curb appeal. You know, you drive by, the house looks great from the street. Now, I would ask someone, would you buy a house without getting inside of it, looking? Wouldn't you get into the crawl space, see how the plumbing. You know, you come into the house, and you find it's eaten with termites. It's collapsing on the inside. It doesn't matter how good it would look on the outside. And that's very much I think the situation with universalism, the longer you look at it, the less appealing it is. McClymond: Look at what happened to the Universalist Church in America. A lot of people don't even know that there's a 19th century denomination, Tufts University in Boston, founded by universalism. What happened to them? Well, universalism led them ultimately to reject the idea that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. They concluded that God is simply not a punishing God. Punishing is not what God does, because Jesus didn't die on the cross for our sins. They conclude the next step beyond was that well he didn't really have to be divine. He was just a moral teacher. And so you have this movement that starts out very evangelical, very Bible centered, collapsing into a kind of moralistic humanism. McClymond: By the early 20th century, some members of the Universalist Church no longer even believed in the afterlife. So the very movement that wanted to extend heaven to everyone ultimately ended up becoming skeptical about it. Some of the Universalist signed the Humanist Manifesto. So it wasn't until 1961 that the Universalist merge with the Unitarians to form The UU, Unitarian Universalist, but you get the idea. There was a theological collapse that occurred. So I think the same thing will definitely happen for those who embrace universalism, and think that this is a viable plan. McClymond: Robin Parry who wrote the book called, The Evangelical Universalist thinks that this is just another option. Some Evangelical Christians believe in infant baptism, some believe in adult, some believe in one view of Jesus return to Millennium, and another, and another view. He thinks that this is just an option that bible-believing Christian can hold. But the history shows this view, when it's been embraced, has led to ... Let's say been connected with a generalized theological collapse. McClymond: Another analogy you might use is like chess game. You know, you make a move, one piece across the board, it might look like a great move, right? But then the grandmaster on the side who really understands chess strategy drops his head, puts his face in his hand, why? Because he sees several moves ahead, and sees that's like a game-ending move that someone has just made, thinking it was a strong move. McDermott: Well, Karl Barth is widely considered to be the most influential theologian of the 20th century, not only on Protestants, not only on reformed Protestants, but on the general theological world, even the Catholic world of theology. Was Karl Barth a Universalist? He claimed he was not. McClymond: What Barth was rather double sided on this. I mean there's one direct quote from Barth where he said, "I do not teach it, but I do not not teach it." Which of course is confusing. And I think that it's almost as if someone were ... All the premises of universalism are there, except the very word itself. If someone wrote on a chalkboard, two plus two equals, and then walked away, that person could actually claimed they did not write the word four, but they put all the premises there. And one of the things that Barth clearly says, Emil Brunner, his early critic picked up is that Jesus Christ and his dying on the cross is the only condemned man. And Brunner said, "This is not only universalism, this is the most extreme form of universalism." More extreme than Origen in the early church. Because Origen believed in something like a temporary hell, where people paid for their own sins, and Barth seemingly affirming that all punishment had been affected when Jesus died on the cross. He was saying that everyone will be saved without any kind of penalty for whatever sins they might have committed. McClymond: So that's actually, technically would be called ultra universalism. So it's very hard to escape. If you say that all punishment ended when Jesus died, the moment Jesus died on the cross, it's very hard to see how you escape universalism. If you look really closely in the Church Dogmatics, what Barth denied was something very narrow. He denied the necessity of the outcome in which everyone would be saved. He didn't deny technically, that everyone might all be saved, but that there was no necessity to it. McDermott: Did this what could be called incipient universalism have impact upon the rest of his theology? McClymond: Yes. Oh, I think very much so. And I have about a hundred, slightly more than a hundred pages I think just on Barth, and the reception of Barth. It's as if Barth wants to make this event of the cross, where all sin is dealt with and the judgment of God is always effected and brought about. He wants to lift it up. It's kind of like a cross that's lifted up occurring in heaven almost. And it's become, in Barth's Doctrine of Election, almost a part of God's eternal nature. So God is not simply the God who is, he is the God who is for us, and he's always been for us. And what this undermines is the graciousness of grace. Grace is built into God's very nature, and it's hard not to see this way of thinking about God as greatly disincentivizing the Christian life, the call to faith, the struggle for holiness. McClymond: It's what technically what we would call antinomianism, the idea that Christians have no moral obligations in life. Everything is affected, everything is accomplished. And what about evangelism? Barth said that the differences between those who know that they are reconciled to God and those who don't. It's not actually calling people to make a decision in which their decision will determine their destiny or their relationship with God. So it's very hard not to see this as affecting all of his theology. And certainly historically speaking, it did affect the mainline Protestants in Europe and America in terms of pushing them away from the call to mission and evangelism. McDermott: Speaking of Barth, there was a famous article this past summer in Theology Today, a leading theological journal, that graphically demonstrates through publication of his letters or parts of his letters that he was in an adulterous relationship through most of his career. Should this affect our reception of Barth, our view of Barth as a great theologian from whom we can learn? McClymond: Well, I do look at the at the life character of the theologians that I want to read and learn from. If I go to get my my auto repaired at the local shop, I don't ask about the personal life of the auto mechanic. I don't think honestly, it probably affects the auto mechanic work that's done. But when you talk about theology, there is a connection between the work that a theologian does in the kind of life he lives, and some of the outstanding thinkers of the church we call saints, they were recognized in the Catholic church as saint: St. Augustine, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Teresa of Avila. So I do think that the life of theologian is a legitimate concern in terms of picking a mentor or someone to learn from. And again, to go back to what I was saying a moment ago, the antinomian tendency is there in Barth. McClymond: Barth's theology is simply not the kind of theology that's conducive to a strenuous, scrupulous concern for a practical holiness of life. And so if there's moral failure connected with his teaching, it seems that this began in Barth's own life, with this decades-long relationship with Lota, Charlotte von Kirschbaum. And I don't know about the chicken and the egg issue, whether some bad theology led to bad behavior or vice versa, but the two things were together. And if you look at the recent essay on the correspondence, what's also alarming Gerry is that rather than just admitting that he was wrong and kind of, "Yes, I'm at an adulterer." Barth seems to have been engaged in the letters and some dangerous obfuscation saying basically that he was in some kind of mysterious dialectical relationship, ya und nein, yes and no. And so it's very alarming because it seems very much that he's rationalizing his behavior in terms of with some kind of complex theological reasoning. McClymond: I mean Barth is as much an adulterer as any man who sees a woman, is attracted to her, gets her into his car and drives to the local motel and sleeps with her. I mean being a great theologian doesn't absolve him, in fact, if anything, it raises concerns even more. McDermott: Well Mike, this book is going to push back against, is going to challenge much of the theological world that's in love with Barth. It's going to challenge much of the theological world that is universalist. Is this this going to make you unpopular as a historical theologian, do you think? McClymond: Oh, I don't doubt that many people will be upset with me. Well, I think I said it at one point that I hope that I didn't have a posse of Barthians and Balthasarians and Moltmannians showing up at my front door. I'm joking because these are three theologians that I critique who either are hopeful or assertive universalists. So if they don't show up at my door, I expect there will be some maybe dismissive arguments in print. McClymond: I think over the long haul Gerry though that the arguments for universalism by someone who accepts the basic premises of the Christian faith are so weak and the arguments against it are so strong, that I do hope that eventually the thought leaders in the church will turn a corner on this. But yes, I do expect that I will be celebrated and reviled for the argument I present. McDermott: Well Mike, you are among the world's top historical theologians. What advice would you give to younger listeners, who are contemplating a career in theology? McClymond: Well, I think there is a discernment process. So I would definitely urge a younger would be theologian to discern very carefully what God is calling you as an individual to do in conversation with some older people, who have long walked with God, and also to maybe engage some who are ... have been engaged in theological writing, that a younger person might already know about and respect. I think over the long haul, faithfulness and following your calling matters more than sheer brain power or intellectual creativity. McClymond: I mean I don't need to name any names, but some of the people that I got into theological study with many, many years ago, now at this point, decades ago, are no longer even professing Christians. And perhaps they wanted to display their brain power through their work, and they succeeded in doing that, did not succeed in maintaining their relationship with Christ, but moved further away from him. McClymond: And honestly Gerry, I think if someone wants to be a teacher in the church, they have to rise to a higher level in their calling, not just to be an attender of a local church, but in some sense to take responsibility for the cure of souls. And if someone is involved in ongoing pastoral and practical experience, caring for individuals and their spiritual needs, that can balance out someone's intellectual life and keep them from running off the rails, because some of the theorizing one hears in the seminary, and theology, and religious studies context really is not very practical at all. And so I would urge someone, not just to be a church member, meet the kind of minimal standards, but to rise to a higher level. McClymond: The great thinkers, like Augustine, while he's writing his theological works, he's a bishop. And so he's actually involved in, kind of his, his small claims, being adjudicated in front of them and dealing with pastoral issues and misbehavior within the congregation and churches that were under his care. So you have to really have that kind of involvement to keep, I think the the balance of intellectual and practical engagement. McClymond: And finally, you know the pastoral letters are very clear on this. They urge that leaders of the church not to engage in fruitless speculation. But Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:5, "The goal of our instruction is love from pure a heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." McDermott: Mike, I think that's some sage advice for our younger listeners who are thinking of going into theology, or going into the academy, or going into the pastorate. I want to thank you so much. I want to remind our listeners that your book, The Devil's Redemption will land like a bombshell on the playground of the theologians this May, so look for it. It's coming out from Baker Academic. Announcer: You've been listening to Via Media with host Gerald McDermott, the director of The Institute of Anglican Study Studies at Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. The Institute of Anglican Studies trains men and women for Anglican ministry, and seeks to educate the public in the riches of the Anglican tradition. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Via Media.