Beeson Podcast, Episode #582 Collin Hansen, David Byers, Part Two Jan. 11, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. Last week we started a two episode interview with David Byers and Collin Hansen, our new Beeson Advisory Board co-chairs. We asked them about their faith journeys, local church commitments, and senses of vocation in their day jobs and at Beeson. This week we continue our conversation with these brothers but we’ll focus more intently on the state of our seminaries and potential here at Beeson to be of service to the church and the larger Kingdom of God. So, Kristen, why don’t we dive right in with these dear guests? >>Kristen Padilla: Hello, everyone. If you listened to last week’s episode you heard Doug ask our guests about the state of American evangelical churches. So, we want to jump right in and continue that conversation. This time talking about the state of American evangelical seminaries. So, David and Collin, we just want to talk to you about what you think the challenges and opportunities of American evangelical seminaries are these days, especially as it relates to the challenges and opportunities that you described regarding the church? David, could we start with you? >>David: Yeah. As we talked about last time I’m a wannabe seminarian, but not a seminarian. So, I probably don’t have the in-depth perspective on that that certainly Doug or even Collin would have. But my sense is that within evangelical seminaries we don’t have often the commitment to real scholarship that I wish that we had. That it’s sometimes more of a little bit of a trade school mentality or that you can get this by distance or you can get this by sitting in lectures in big auditoriums at a cut rate. Look, I completely get that when you’re going into ministry your ability to swing a student loan for the next 28 years of your life is limited. I understand that. But I think that to the extent that we cut short a seminary education in order to come up with some kind of quick tips and short cut versions of Christianity, I think it’s damaging. I’ve always admired at least the Catholic’s approach to, or their depth to scholarship, and I don’t think that we do ourselves any favors by shortcutting a deep knowledge of the scholarship of the bible. I find that when I’m talking to even unbelievers what they really want to know is what is this whole narrative? What is this about? When I go into even my somewhat shallow education about it they’ve just never heard the bible explained in any depth. So, I hope that our seminaries are not shortcutting that as much as I fear that they are. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, David. Collin, what would you add? >>Collin: If I were, had an opportunity with all of these leaders of evangelical seminaries, what I would tell them is you ultimately need in this increasingly secular post Christian West, you don’t need less training, you need more. And I would say that you need a foundation of biblical exegesis. You need to build on that with an understanding of history and the development of doctrine. And certainly I think Beeson is well positioned in those ways more so I think than a lot of other seminaries. Then I would also add that you need a grid to be able to interpret the culture in which you live. And I think Beeson is growing in those ways as well. But those things, they all have to be working together at the same time. I think that some seminaries that are more attuned to the contemporary situation, sometimes they can get unmoored from the history of the Church or systematic theology or from biblical exegesis. I think of some other places that you’ll learn a lot about the Reformation or learn a lot about Greek and Hebrew – you don’t necessarily learn about how you’re supposed to apply that today. Or even some of the challenges that Christians have faced in the past of being able to do that. So, it’s always that evangelical desire, which is easier said than done. To want to simultaneously be faithful to the bible, above all, revealed by God, at the same time faithful to good Christian history, not in a narrow sense but in a basic Christianity sense, and at the same time be relevant to an ever-changing world. And we can all talk about ways that that’s gone haywire one way or another. But that’s what I see seminaries continually struggling with. I think Beeson is in a unique position to do that because of a strong foundation of we are rooted in the historical evangelical doctrine, but also we teach people to think on their own because of our commitment to being interdenominational there. So, that’s just one of the many reasons. I’m sure we’ll have some other opportunities on this podcast to talk about other reasons I’m excited about Beeson right now. But if that’s when I’m talking to other seminaries from my alma mater to others where I love to work with today – that’s what I would say about the needs for this moment. >>Doug Sweeney: Now that we’ve talked a little bit about the state of the church and the state of evangelical seminary education in general, let’s talk a bit about Beeson Divinity School and its place in the larger world of seminaries, divinity schools. I’m interested in telling our listeners just a little bit, Collin, about how we got you connected to Beeson. How did we talk you into being part of the enterprise here? What would you say is the place of Beeson in the larger economy of theological education in North America today? >>Collin: Yeah, so it’s a funny story but back when I was in undergrad in Chicago I was writing about the Reformation. I was aware of Christianity Today magazine, especially as a journalism major. And so I got acquainted with the work of Timothy George. And so I had the privilege of basically just calling him and I think it was Leanne I must have talked to, connected me. Here I am interviewing him and he’s giving me a breakdown of the Catholic church and the Reformation and all that kind of stuff. I knew he was a scholar in that sense, but I didn’t have any really idea of the depth. And over the years as I would visit my girlfriend at the time and then now my wife, I visited her family in Birmingham from Chicago. He would just be gracious to sit down with me every time and we would just talk about whatever. And I’d ask him career advice. I remember asking him about seminaries. And he said, “Well, of course, I’d love for you to come here. But you need to go meet when you go back to Chicago with my good friend John Woodbridge.” And I of course met with John Woodbridge and John said, “Well, I got just the idea for you. You need to go take this class with Doug Sweeney.” (laughs) So, that’s how it all came together there. Even though I never attended Beeson I’ve benefitted from it in so many ways and always been an admirer. And then when I moved here in 2012, we moved here for a variety of reasons, but having Beeson just a few minutes away from us was a blessing, and an extra blessing was when Timothy George said, “Hey, we’ve got some extra space here. Would you love a spot where you can come and be a part of our community? And just have a place to work outside of the home.” And that’s just been an amazing blessing for me over the years. And then I simply really got lucky in that providential sense that Doug you then came and succeeded Timothy George in that. I think one thing I just want to add on here is that Beeson has been just this amazing witness that we’re seeing over the last 30+ years through Birmingham and around the world. One of the things that’s neatest is that I love to serve Beeson in large part because of my commitment to Birmingham and my local church in that community. And the way Beeson is so integrated now throughout Birmingham is a relatively recent development as changes have been happening in our city. So, I just say to perspective students or donors or just supporters of the school that it’s a great place to be for all kinds of different reasons, but in part because of the amazing breadth of churches that are wonderful and ready for you to serve with, and doing a wide variety of things throughout our city. And just, David, talking ... I mean, we could talk forever about just the history of his church going all the way back to Brother Bryan in this city. I just love that. I love our community. I just love the way Beeson integrates there and just glad to play a small part in it. >>Doug Sweeney: How about you, David? How did we get you connected to Beeson Divinity School? What’s your take on the place of Beeson in the larger world of theological education? How is it similar to and different from other schools that you’ve heard about or that you might know about? >>David: Well, I became involved because I heard that there was a Jonathan Edwards scholar who was the new Dean of Beeson Seminary. Of course I’d known of Beeson and knew a couple of graduates there in the past. But I thought, “A Jonathan Edwards scholar in Birmingham, Alabama? That’s somebody I want to meet.” And I haven’t read all of Edward’s works, but the few that I’ve read were extremely impactful. Reading “Charity and It’s Fruits” and the way Edwards spoke of the fruit of the Spirit and the conversion of man being the true extraordinary gifts of the Spirit was something I’ll just never recover from. So, anyway, through one of our assistant pastors, Doug, you and I were supposed to have lunch. It turns out he got sick or something and couldn’t and you and I had lunch. I was really glad that we did. That was my first connection to the seminary. I think that if I were confronted with that choice again to go to seminary or go to law school and I knew about Beeson what I do now I might have tried harder to prevail on my wife to go to seminary with me. Because the community that Beeson is, the role of professors in the lives of the students at Beeson, the interactive kind of community that it is, that I’ve heard about from our pastors, is an incredible thing. That’s the kind of thing that if I were a student that I would long for, is to be not just given facts about the bible in an auditorium setting, but to be immersed in a culture of living out the bible. And being with older people who had walked with Christ much longer than I have and who are very, very educated in the scriptures and had been just walking through life and to get their advice, particularly in this age that we live in now. To be able to talk through some of the things that are going on in culture would have been worth everything. I mean, I think that’s just the best training for a pastor who is not just going to preach Sunday sermons, not that Beeson doesn’t train you well to do that, but that is also going to be living with their parish or their congregation and walking through life with them – that’s just the training that’s really essential, although it’s not often provided. So, I think Beeson has a really valuable role in the world of seminaries. >>Kristen Padilla: Within the last couple of years we have launched several new initiatives and as you both know there are many other plans underway. What gets you excited about Beeson’s future? Especially as you think about some of the things that are happening at our school. What gets you excited? And for our listeners, how might they get involved or how might you encourage them to support the work that is going on here today? David, let’s start with you? >>David: You know, Collin mentioned just a minute ago about the essentials of seminary education including kind of cultural context. And I think that Beeson is set up to teach that particularly in kind of life on life in discussion with professors – to kind of teach how it is that you do that. How you engage people and understand the culture that we’re all swimming in and relate the gospel into that culture. So, all of that excites me. One thing Doug and I talked about was filling the Billy Graham Chair of Apologetics. I mean, apologetics. Man, I love to watch Billy Graham films. My wife and I will sit and watch a re-run of a Billy Graham crusade and so much of it is so nostalgic. It just brings ... what a gifted orator he was. But we live in a different era. And so I think Beeson is particularly postured, given the way that the education is structured, to really teach seminarians how to speak into the right context. As far as supporting it, I was surprised at how little it takes to support a scholarship. So, I’m talking at church now about supporting scholarship. Beeson is more expensive than some schools. I think it’s entirely worth it, but again, I know you can only stretch so far. So, we need people to jump on board and help and fund scholarships for young people coming through seminary. So, that’s one, I think, really easy way to get involved. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, David. Collin, by the time this episode airs you will be in the middle of teaching a brand new class at Beeson. So, that’s one of the new things on the horizon. But what else would you add to what excites you about Beeson’s future? >>David: Well, yeah, I mean, I’ve got to follow up with David and Doug after this, and I want to hear more of those updates of what they’ve been working on there. It’s pretty exciting. Yeah, my class will be teaching right when this comes out, Cultural Apologetics. We’ve got a full class of 17 students signed up to take that for two weeks. Should be a real fun time for all of us. I’m looking forward to it, no doubt. I mean, there are so many different things. For a relatively small school in the grand scheme of things there’s always all kinds of different things happening from ... Kristen, I know we’ve talked, I mean, you’ve talked on the podcast a lot about the Women in Ministry, ways that we’re helping to develop women in a variety of different callings and backgrounds there. New Methodist certifications. I mean, I wouldn’t have even thought that possible some 10, 20 years ago. Especially as somebody that grew up in the Methodist Church. So, there’s always new developments like that. But at the same time the thing that I come back to is I’m working on a project right now that maybe we can talk about in the future, but so much of this book that I’ve been working on is about the influence that residential seminary education can have in a person’s life. In this biography I’ve got I think three chapters just on seminary and it keeps coming back to the community, the relationships, the mentorship, the conversations over the meals. Just the in-depth focus and how it builds a lifetime of ministry. And so I know that it’s always easy in a seminary to be talking about the new innovations that allow you to be able to go quicker and to finish younger and to know have to move ... or to have to do it all online. I understand the benefits of that. But I’ve seen so many different times in ministry that what saves you in the short term hurts you in the long term. And we’re looking forward to a lifetime of ministry with eternal impact. As a result you want to devote your best to those three, three and a half years of seminary training. I know the difference it’s made in my life. I know the difference it’s made in all kinds of other people’s lives, including people that I write about and that I serve with. And so what I’m excited about in the future of Beeson is not changing that focus. Again, I hesitate to share some of the other new initiatives that I’m not even sure are public that I’m pretty excited about in terms of even higher advanced degrees and whatnot. But I’m excited that Beeson will be the same school that so many people have loved for 30+ years. And that’s saying something in this economic and seminary climate. >>Doug Sweeney: Hey, man, Lord help us. I would be remiss guys if we didn’t give a shout out to the board itself. We set this interview up by telling everybody that you two are the new co-chairs of the Beeson Advisory Board. And they probably don’t need 10-15 minutes about the Advisory Board, but tell our listeners a little bit about what the board is, what the board does? And as new chairs of the board what your hopes and your prayers are for the role the board might play through the ministries of Beeson and building up the Lord’s Church and advancing his Kingdom. Collin, you want to start this one? >>Collin: Sure. Yeah, well, I’ve been honored to be on the board from the beginning and been able to see the whole thing develop. I do think it’s helpful for people to understand that this is an Advisory Board. It’s not a governing board. David and I and the board members we have no actual authority over Doug or anybody else. We’re here as friends and ask servants and as advocates of Doug’s leadership as well as the seminary as a whole. So, I would say we are incredibly blessed with the leadership of our previous president, Andy Westmoreland, at Samford and then also now, Beck Taylor, our current President. Because that’s what sets the trajectory for Beeson as well and that board. I haven’t always known how that would turn out. But I can say that I’ve never been more confident about Samford University and its direction and the governance of that board at Samford. It’s not necessarily ... in some ways it has changed. And I think it’s changed for the better, for the school’s long term future. And so we don’t govern, but we do advise. So, that includes raising money. That includes recruiting students. That includes advocating as we’re looking to hire faculty. And I know, Doug, that one of the things that we’ve talked about before is we have some pending retirements, even announced retirements at Beeson, and we’re going to have to try to find younger faculty to help carry and lead this school forward for the next generations. And the way that we look back at Frank Thielman and Ken Matthews having done so. I’ll kick it to David for the rest of this, but I’m really grateful for Victor Hansen’s leadership, our friend Victor, with the board over the years. [inaudible 00:20:11] Langford ... set it up originally in recruiting me. And I think people would be encouraged to know that the mixture of business leaders, current pastors, especially in Birmingham and Beeson alumni. It’s a good mixture of people who bring diverse perspectives. And I know, Doug, you’ve been very clear with us about wanting our input despite the fact that we all know that you don’t need it. In part, because you lead well, but also because we’re not a governance board. So, the fact that you solicit that from us is something that we take seriously and we want to help with because ultimately we love the school and we love to see what God is doing through it. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a good word. And I do need it, Collin, by the way. And speaking of my need for friends, David, how about you? What got you interested in the board and as you hope and dream and pray about the future of the role of the board and the life at Beeson what do you think about? >>David: Well, I’ll say what got me interested, Doug, was as an envious non seminarian to be in particular around Beeson and to really kind of see a seminary the exact way I would have wanted to do it. Just makes me love to be around it. I mean, I just love ... Honestly, I just love to walk and explore the school. The other day before our board meeting, just walking through and kind of exploring by myself and seeing classes start and the professors up beginning to talk to students. In a weird way, I was with somebody yesterday who was telling me how much they love collecting watches and cars. I’m like, “I don’t know anything I like to collect.” In a weird way I like to be around ... like, walk through those halls and see people teaching the Word of God to younger people who are going to be living way after I am – should the Lord choose to delay. And in teaching the Word of God. So, I just love the whole environment. I love being around it and I love doing anything I can to help it. I think that, I guess my view of where the board goes is it looks to me like the board has done a great job of being a cheerleader for the school and encouraging probably Timothy George well. I agree with Collin, you probably don’t need a lot of advice or ... we all need encouragement ... but I think what you could also use is just kind of help in advocating for the school. And help in creating additional resources for the school. And I think that’s what i would encourage each board member to do is just say, “You know, we’re all different.” Pastors are in a different spot than business people are. Everybody’s in a different spot. But how can I help advocate for the school? Who can I introduce to the school that might catch the vision? We’re very blessed to have the support of Mr. Beeson and we’re not threatened like a lot of seminaries financially, but what we can do, and the number of students we can serve and impact is restricted by the funds that we have available. So, that’s the direction I would like to see the board going is how can we better advocate and help the school bring in more kids and that scholarships would be really important for that. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, David, for that word. And Collin for the conversation today and for the one that we had last week. Collin, we ended last week’s episode by hearing from David about what the Lord has been working on in his life, how he’s been working in his life. So, we’d like to end this podcast with hearing what the Lord has been doing in your life, teaching you these days as a word of encouragement to our listeners. >>Collin: Maybe this won’t immediately sound encouraging, but really the theme passage for me that I think about this last year has been Psalm 73. It seems as though sometimes that unrighteousness rules or that it works or that somehow the ungodly prosper. And that the Church is weak and ineffective at being able to oppose that. And yet I enter into the sanctuary of the Lord and I discern their end. And so the Psalms have been that balm to my soul of giving me heavenly perspective. And I think what I find so often is when you read through the bible over and over again it’s amazing how a different times of your life different themes will emerge or recede. And what I’ve seen with the Psalms is now I go through and I think, “Wow, there’s so much here about your friends betraying you.” (laughs) I didn’t think about that when I was a 15 year old convert. But now that I’ve been in ministry for decades I understand that now. And that people who you once thought were close are no longer. And so even thought that is discouraging, it takes me right back and I think about something that I preached years ago actually at Beeson chapel about the friendship of Peter and the friendship of Judas. And how the difference ultimately is grace. And I’m grateful for Jesus’ grace because I don’t have any hope apart from that. And that’s enough. Even if you think about Habakkuk 3. I mean, even if the Babylonians should invade I will praise the Lord. That’s enough in this world. And it will be enough in the next. As we dwell with God forever. So, that’s what I’m learning now. It’s bittersweet but it is legitimately sweet. >>Doug Sweeney: That is indeed enough, listeners, and we will forever give God thanks and praise for his grace in our lives. Not least through the ministries of these friends, Collin Hansen and David Byers, the new co-chairs of the Beeson Divinity School Advisory Board. David Byers’ day job is to serve as Managing Principal of Capital Strategies here in Birmingham. Collin’s is to serve as Vice President for Content and Editor in Chief of the Gospel Coalition. They’re both dear friends of mine and of this school, most importantly. We thank them for their time. And we thank you for joining us. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.