Beeson Podcast, Episode #576 Reverend Paul Lawler Nov. 23, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. It is a delight to welcome you back to the program. We are excited about today’s guest, Pastor Paul Lawler. Mostly because he’s a brother in Christ, a friend, and a partner in ministry. But also because he serves a leading Methodist church in town, and it’s helping us to launch our new Wesleyan Certificate MDiv program here at Beeson. We’ll look forward to telling you about that in a minute. But before we do we also want to wish you and yours a Happy Thanksgiving. After two years of COVID-19 and social strife that’s torn away at the fabric of our culture and our churches, I am grateful to God for his steadfast love, sustaining power, and mercies that are new every morning. I’m also thankful for you and your partnership in the gospel, dear listener. It is a blessing here at Beeson to have friends like you who are eager to help us serve the Lord and his Church. Kristen, would you please introduce today’s guest? >>Kristen Padilla: I sure will, Doug. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. We have on the show today, Reverend Paul Lawler. He is the lead pastor of Christ Church UMC in Birmingham where he has served since 2007. He is a graduate of Asbury University and Asbury Theological Seminary. Reverend Lawler is married to Missy and they have four children. Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. >>Paul Lawler: Thank you, Kristen, and thank you, Dr. Sweeney. It’s a joy to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: It is so good to have you with us in our studio. Listeners, we’ve been recording over Zoom for quite some time and so we are glad to be back in person. We always like to begin getting to know our guests a bit better. Could you tell us about yourself? Who you are, where you’re from, what the Lord has you doing these days? >>Paul Lawler: Yeah. Well, I was actually born here in Birmingham, in east Birmingham. When I was a child my parents divorced, re-married, we moved to Guntersville, Alabama. I went to Guntersville High School. In my early twenties I was an Agnostic, or sometimes gravitated between Agnosticism and Deism, or a vague Deism. There were two guys at the University of Alabama in the Sigma Kai fraternity that I would just say lived the Christian life in a way that their lives demanded an explanation. They did not lead me to Christ, but they were catalytic in causing some wheels to turn in my own thinking and heart. The grace of God was pursuing. The Lord was pursuing me and I was clearly, at that time, did not have a category for that. I was alone in my bedroom, came to know Christ. I had a fairly dramatic conversion experience. Even though I was raised going to church, I grew up in a fairly liberal United Methodist Church and I had never heard the gospel. We never read our bibles. I couldn’t quote John 3:16. I walked out of my bedroom and my mom looked at me and I was a college student, about 21 years old, and she said, “What happened to you?” And I said, “I don’t know. I only know it’s God.” Within a few months I could sense a call to ministry. I fought that for a while. Then yielded to a call to ministry. I got active in the only church I knew to get active in at that time, because I was raised in the United Methodist Church. Went back to church. There just so happened to be an evangelical spirit-filled United Methodist pastor who discipled me. And I began to grow in the Lord. I met my wife, Missy, and we finished seminary as you noted a moment ago, Kristen. And planted a church, served her for 16 years in Huntsville, Alabama. 2007 we were asked if we would like to come to Birmingham and serve Christ Church. We said, “No.” It was an authentic choice we had. We were not forced to come as can be the case in Methodisism at times. But the district superintendant, which is the overseer in our denomination, at least the more locally regional overseer, asked if we would pray. Missy and I joined hands and prayed and I think some of your listeners have had moments like this where there is the peace of God that passes understanding. And you’re like, “Wait a minute, something is going on here.” And without even driving and seeing the campus of Christ Church, without knowing a single person at Christ Church, we accepted the call based upon how we sensed the leading of God. So, we moved here in 2007 and did a redirect, what you would call a re-launch, of an existing church. Took the leadership through nine months of studying the scripture, asking the question, “What is the purpose of the church?” And please understand, when I make this statement I am not saying that we have received the stone tablets from the mountain and have come down with the great revelation, but after nine months of prayer and study, the leadership of the church wrote a new mission statement. “We exist to glorify God, treasure Jesus Christ, love others, and make disciples of all peoples.” And established a vision of making a 25 year commitment to a segment of inner city Birmingham. We had members pick up and move and move in and live among the urban poor in the inner city. We formed what’s called the East Lake initiative, which is a holistic ministry for ministry in the urban centers of our city. We made a commitment to plant 100 churches around the world, primarily among unreached people groups, and then we made a commitment to develop 150 people in sustained patterns of discipleship. And that is not merely training, but training people to multiply. And the reason we had a goal of 150 is because we know from sociological research that’s a tipping point for creating movement. So, we have not finished or completed that goal. We’ve trained probably 800 or 900 people, but the key is 150 people who are in sustained patterns of discipleship replication multiplication. So, that’s a little bit about me on the front end. I thank you for the kind question. >>Doug Sweeney: That is wonderful. We’ve referred to Methodism a few times, Pastor Lawler. Kristen and I know, our listeners are denominationally diverse – some are Baptists, some are Presbyterians, some are Anglican, there may even be a few Lutherans out there listening to us right now. So, for those who don’t know a lot about what Methodism is, could you give us a little primer? Who are these people called Methodists? >>Paul Lawler: That’s a great question. Methodism was founded by a man named John Wesley. Wesley actually did not set out to form a new denomination. He was seeking to be an agent of renewal in the Anglican Church in England in the 18th century. Without getting into great detail, Wesley formed several different tenants that do make Methodism unique. One of those is assurance of salvation, which is out of Wesley’s Aldersgate experience where he writes, “My heart was strangely warmed,” when he heard Luther’s preface to the Book of Romans being read, articulating justification by faith in the person of Jesus Christ through his grace. Wesley moved in faith around that teaching and the Holy Spirit brought witness as he moved in faith that he was a child of God. So, that would be the first one. Probably the tenant that’s most unique is the teaching around entire sanctification, or being perfected in love. I might take a moment, if I could give a plug for a book. It’s not my book, it’s Dr. Kevin Watson has recently written a book titled, “Perfect Love” and I would recommend that book for anyone that’s interested in learning about the distinctives of Methodism in the classical sense. Being perfected in love does not mean you lose your sin nature, as some people have unfortunately twisted that teaching and created a lot of misunderstanding. But being perfected in love is walking in the grace of God and the Spirit of God and God’s work in you in a way that God works to purify the motives of the heart, to love others perfectly, to walk in the peace of God, to live a holy life, an empowered life, as a witness and to spread scriptural holiness throughout the land. And so those would be the primary distinctives. There are more things I could say, but I think that those two things primarily around what I’m saying or what I’m expressing around being perfected in love and entire sanctification. Historically, that’s probably our most distinctive contribution to the broader body of Christ. >>Kristen Padilla: About a year ago you spoke at an event hosted by Beeson’s Global Center. The title of your talk that you gave was, “The Global Focus of a New Expression of Methodism.” Listeners, this video is on our YouTube Channel at Beeson Divinity. You can go and listen to it after the podcast, of course. (laughs) But you shared about a new vision and a new day that is coming within the Methodist tradition. Can you talk to use about this vision? What is it that you were sharing with our students about a year ago? >>Paul Lawler: There is a dynamic new day coming for a people called Methodists. One of the reasons I’m so passionate about the future is that what is being developed for the future global Methodist church is global in expression. It’s an expression of equipping a global church to propagate the love of God through the gospel and the expression of mercy ministry from everywhere to everywhere. And this will be expressed through the formation of what’s called the Wesleyan Network for Global Mission, which is a part of our work in developing the global expression of mission for the new global Methodist Church. That network is being developed as a means of equipping the church in prayer, because we recognize for any local church, let alone a denomination, to move into having a heart for all people, that means our hearts need to be changed. So, there’s equipping in moving to new levels in prayer, there’s equipping in local churches growing in their understanding of becoming great commission churches. If we could use software terminology that would be like going from 1.0 to 2.0. New iterations of being developed as great commissions churches. We also, it will be an entity that equips local churches into disciple making movements and church planting movements and best practices. I would share that as Dr. Kim Riceman has provided some leadership in this area, one of our leaders in Methodism. But Dr. J. D. Pane also, is a part of the Beeson staff, has spoken into that process as we’re developing a good survey of the best practices local churches are using in their cultural context all over the world – so that we honor the indigenous nature of the Church and her expressions around the world. But gleaning forth, “What are the most effective methods in disciple making church planting?” This is all being structured with a sensitivity to the 10/40 window, but also a sensitivity to eastern Europe, as well as Russia, that we recognize in some context or you would define as reached because there are Christians in the area, but these are areas of severe decline in evangelical expression of Christianity. But not with an insensitivity to Latin America or South America or Australia. We are being conscious of seeking to fan the flames of gospel propagation and disciple making in every sphere of the earth. The global Methodist Church actually will have representatives from every continent when she’s birthed. So, that’s my short response. I want to be sensitive to your leaders. There’s much more I could share, but that’s why we have a video, I suppose. >>Kristen Padilla: That’s right. (laughs) >>Doug Sweeney: One of the real special things in my mind about the global Methodist Church is that it really is going to be global. And you’ll know the numbers probably better than I do, but the estimates I’ve heard about the percentage of the members who will probably be from outside the West is pretty stunning. >>Paul Lawler: It is. >>Doug Sweeney: Do you have any of those numbers in your head? Just to give our listeners a feel, even if it’s not perfect? >>Paul Lawler: Yeah, and I appreciate the way you framed that, Dr. Sweeney. This isn’t perfect what I’m about to say. But after the global Methodist Church is formed, over the next 60 months – and it will take time because we don’t know right now which process is going to be catalytic in her formation in terms of passage of the protocol, which I may address in a moment, or if we end up launching through other means. But there is speculation that within 60 months that the possibility is that the new global Methodist Church could number five to six million people. While percentages are not precise, the overwhelming majority of those would be in Africa and other parts of the world. That does not minimize that there is a large critical mass of persons who would be a part of the global Methodist Church in the United States. I’m not negating that, but you make a great point that it is more of the global south, the global majority church that will form the new global Methodist Church. >>Kristen Padilla: One of the things that we’ve talked about here at Beeson is the formation and preparation of leaders and ministers in this new global Methodist Church. And you’ve been strategic in helping Beeson develop a new Wesleyan certificate program, as well as a Wesley Fellowship. Can you talk to our listeners about this new certificate program? Why you are invested in it and why you think Beeson is well positioned to prepare ministers of the gospel, especially in this new church? >>Paul Lawler: Well, I treasure that question, Kristen. And value it for many reasons. First of all, let me begin with that in a new movement that can potentially number five to six million people, we need multiple seed beds, training centers, seminaries that are equipping for the future of the Church. That’s the first reason. And Beeson is a healthy, I’d even say dynamic, evangelical seminary that I know and many others know can be trusted at a deep level in equipping persons for full time ministry. Secondly, I treasure the deposit. I made a comment on this today in chapel. That Beeson models the best of the evangelical tradition in a manner that it also honors the diversity of tribes. And that’s the terminology – one kingdom, many tribes. And I use that as a metaphor for denominational expressions. I’m so aware that there are Anglicans preparing for ministry here, Baptists, Lutherans, you mentioned this a moment ago – and persons from multiple traditions. While we Wesleyans a part of what we value is what John Wesley called a catholic spirit and that is we have an identity, there’s no question. And there are certain things that I commented on that are a part of our identity that ... They might not all be essentials, but they’re a part of what makes us distinctive. But at the same time, honoring a catholic spirit, we have the opportunity to share in the cross pollenization with other expressions of the Christian faith. I think that prepares people well for serving a life of ministry. The other thing is that Beeson has a global emphasis. And that aligns with the DNA of the new global Methodist church as well. As Dr. Mike Pasquarello takes the lead as a United Methodist professor here, in this realm, I have personally watched him operate with a sensitivity of the total picture of what’s being developed as students are being developed here at Beeson. I have watched that collaboration with the global emphasis of the seminary which aligns beautifully with the future global emphasis of the global Methodist Church. >>Doug Sweeney: You preached this morning in chapel, one of the best sermons I’ve heard in a long time; 1 Corinthians 11. What did you preach about? I want our listeners to ... Don’t tell them everything, because I want them to go online and – listeners, you know how to do this. Our website or YouTube page, you go hear it yourself. But what did you preach about this morning from 1 Corinthians? >>Paul Lawler: Well, that’s a very kind comment, Dr. Sweeney. Thank you. But we taught on the passage that’s dealing with the preparation of the heart in coming to the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper. And as many of your listeners know, all of us in the Body of Christ value coming to the Lord’s table. This is particularly true for Wesleyans as well. We see the Lord’s Supper as a means of grace. And that’s not just true in our tribe, that’s true in others as well. But as you noted I’m not going to re-preach the entire sermon, so be at peace, listener. But we sought to honor the text in the context of what the Corinthian church was navigating with division and the polarization there. Sin, there was drunkenness that was prevalent as people were coming to the table, elitism, and we sought to not only teach the text faithfully but also accentuate things that we need to be mindful of in our own culture in the context of how the church brings light around the power of unity in Christ with Christ being our highest common denominator. As Christ is our unifier us living that out in our diversity without compromising essentials. That’s why Paul is writing Corinthians. He’s addressing things that are essential for the Church. He even says to the Church, as we know in the fifth chapter, that you need to take some action with certain sin that may appear divisive on the surface but in order to have unity you’ve got to deal with the problem in the church in order that you have an authentic unity. Now, I didn’t address that in the sermon but it is a model for us for not only how God is jealous for his bride, but Paul who did not have an indifferent heart is aligning with the will and way and heart of God in both correcting the Corinthian Church and helping her get healthy again. So, I sought to also encourage the students. I’m aware as a seminary student, it can be a grind at times. So, there was some things as we closed the sermon out that I wanted to accentuate around some things that are shifting in the church in North America. And why I believe that many of our students here at Beeson, and I just say “our” because my heart is in there with you all – that they’re going to ... I think they’re going to step into leadership in an hour, not only of great need, but I think they’re going to step into leadership in an hour where God is posturing the Church for a healthier day. She won’t be perfect till Jesus comes, but some things are happening right now which I cited that I think the North American Church in some of the challenges she’s going through that something redemptive is going to come out on the other side that’s far more preferable and God honoring. So, I’ll stop there. But that’s the heart of what I was seeking to communicate this morning. >>Kristen Padilla: That’s segues nicely into a question I want to ask you related just to being a seasoned pastor. We have talked a lot about resilience in ministry around our halls and in our most recent Beeson Magazine. And so what would you say to our listeners about being resilient in ministry? Would you have any advice or words of wisdom to give? >>Paul Lawler: Kristen, thank you for that question. When I was in my 20’s I was a seminary student. And I have no idea where this set of questions came from, but I started a practice in my 20’s of asking retired pastors, “If you could do it all over again, what would you do differently?” And there’s a number one and number two answer that are very clear. The number three answer gets all over the map. But the first answer is, “I would have prayed more.” And the number two answer is, “I would have spent more time with my family.” And I still ask this question of retiring pastors. And so my wife and I, when we were in our twenties and while we were in seminary, we made the decision and realization that ministry can always be under the tyranny of the urgent if you’re not careful. We made a decision to structure things. And so we structure time for prayer. We structure time as a family. We have done that for 30 something years. When I’m asked the question, “Pastor, can you do this?” If it’s not an emergency, I don’t give an explanation, I just say, “I already have a commitment.” I love my congregation deeply. And I love the congregation we served in Huntsville for 16 years deeply. But that was my standard answer. “I’m sorry, I already have a commitment.” And we protected our family time. Today, and I’m 34 years into ministry, I’m very thankful for our four children and how we all have good relationships and by God’s grace we’re not only intact but I’m thankful that we’re all healthy. The second thing is that you structure some time away. I recommend at least every 90 days maybe an overnighter somewhere ... whether it’s the wife is in ministry or the husband is in ministry or both, but about every 90 days to take a break, go somewhere, something you can look forward to. And spend some time in prayer together, spend some time having fun together. But Mark Sayers, I don’t know if any of our listeners are familiar with him. I think he’s out of Australia, may live on the West coast now. But he wrote a book not long ago and I’m trying to remember the name of it and maybe we can put it in the show notes. Because the name of it is not coming right now. But he took the pattern of Jesus departing to the lonely place and wrote kind of template in one of his books around in the Western Church, particularly with some of the emerging pressures that the Western Church now is facing. Very similar to the ... more like the global church. But he talks about the important rhythms of pulling away and then journeying back into the culture in the pattern of Jesus. There’s a sense in which that’s the pattern we’ve adopted for a number of years. I really recommend to persons to build those patterns into their lives so that you stay fresh in ministry and life, just life. >>Doug Sweeney: Those are some real gems of pastoral wisdom. Paul, Kristen and I have developed a tradition over the last couple of years for the way we end these interviews with guests. We want to end on an edifying note for our listeners. So, we ask people, “What has the Lord been teaching you personally recently?” And by recently we mean last few weeks, last few months. What is God doing in your life? What have you been learning in your walk with the Lord that we might conclude with by way of edifying those who are listening? >>Paul Lawler: Thank you for the question, Dr. Sweeney. This may parallel some of our private conversation in the last hour. I’m an avid reader. I always have a stack of books by my bed, by the chair where I do devotions every morning. I’m going to maybe dip 24 months and then come recent. The last several years we’ve been building more of a missionary biography and the reason I’m reading missionary biography is I notice not only do we have a heart for the world but I notice many missionaries believe God as the God of the now. And I think that’s real important for the Western Church. I’m an advocate for study. I’m an advocate for seminary and higher learning. I don’t anticipate that’s going to stop, but we need to believe and trust God as the God of the now. And then that’s been complimented in the last 12 months in reading more and building a library round revival and spiritual awakening. And really understanding more of how God has moved in history. Not only what we see in the pages of scripture, but how God is moved, whether it’s the Hebrides revival through Jonathan Edwards or the Wesley Brothers or Asbury University in the ‘70s, the Jesus Movement. But really dipping far more deeper in history than what I just shared in those examples. But recognizing that if God is not only the God of the now, but recognizing in this hour in the West how deeply we need a touching down of God. And I’m seeking to be a better student of that. But I would compliment that with seeking to be a better steward of that. There’s a phrase that came to mind about a year ago. I was praying and it was this phrase, “teach the word, minister the word.” And so I’ve sought in the last particularly, and this is far more recent ... I took a seven week teaching break this summer. And when I took that break one of the books I read was on the Wesleyan history as it relates to movements of the Holy Spirit. And that book wrecked me in a really good way. Because it answered a lot of what I had been praying for the last year, “Lord, teach me more ... not only teaching the word but ministering the word.” What I’ve been more conscientious of doing is coming out of a teaching time then pausing and moving into how God may wish to minister. Not merely salvation, but with a sensitivity to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Not, and I’ll say this for the sake of listeners because we all have a stereotype and we’ve all been exposed to things that you might clarify as charismania – and please, I say that with sensitivity, the best sensitivity that I can muster. But when I read 1 Corinthians 14 and Paul says, “Earnestly desire spiritual gifts.” I’m aware that there’s something that God wants to express through his body. I think about it this way: The fruit of the Holy Spirit is the character of Jesus. The gifts of the Holy Spirit is the ministry of Jesus. And we’re seeking to be more aligned, I’m seeking personally to shepherd and lead and serve in a way that the fullness of Jesus’ heart is expressed through the Body for the sake of building the Body up and her being strong and particularly, again, the cultural challenges that we’re in right now. For the Church to truly be a city set on a hill. Finally, I’m just starting in this but I’m trying to read more Pentecostal scholarship. And I want, for the sake of the listener please here the wedding of those two, some people hear “Pentecostal” and they just run. But I’m trying to read more Dr. Steve Lynn, Dr. Gordon Fee, others that are really substantive scholars in this field. Because I’m aware when you begin seeking to shepherd but at the same time you want to do that with a spirit empowered ministry. It’s also something that needs to be guarded and shepherded where we protect the Church from getting off on things that are daffy or weird as we have seen at times. But at the same time, we need a vibrant and healthy pneumatology. Not just in my tribe, but in the Western Church. So, that’s what God’s been teaching me lately and I’m simply trying to be teachable as a child and move with him at this stage. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen, brother. We pray regularly here at Beeson that the Lord, by his Holy Spirit, would do a special work among us and through us, would bless his people with a special movement of his Spirit. Thank you for being a brother in the Lord. Thank you for being with us today. Listeners, you have been hearing Paul Lawler, the lead pastor of Christ Church here in Birmingham, friend of Beeson Divinity School. Please go online, listen to the sermon he preached in chapel today. We commend it to you wholeheartedly. We love you and we say “goodbye” for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.