Beeson Podcast, Episode #569 Dr. Webster Oct. 4, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. Today, we will interview one of my best friends and favorite people on the Beeson faculty, Dr. Doug Webster. Before we do though, let me make a plug for our Preview Day on Friday, October 15th. This will be our final Preview Day of the fall semester. We encourage prospective students to attend if they are able. It is the best way to experience all that Beeson has to offer. I always look forward to getting to know the prospective students myself and letting them know what the Lord is doing these days here at Beeson. And if that is not a good enough reason to sign up, I will add that everyone who attends will have his or her application fee waived. So, if you or someone you love is interested, find out more at www.BeesonDivinity.com/previewday. Kristen, will you please introduce Dr. Doug Webster? >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Doug. Hello, everyone. It’s good to be back with you this week. Today on the show we have Dr. Doug Webster. He is professor of Divinity here at Beeson Divinity School where he teaches pastoral theology and Christian preaching. He’s also a teaching pastor at the Cathedral Church of the Advent. And has prior to that pastored in many different places at several different churches. He is married to Virginia. They have three adult children and several grandchildren. Dr. Webster is also the author of 15 books. If my calculation was correct. (laughs) And so today we are glad to have him on the show to talk about his most recent book on Jesus’ parables. So, welcome, Dr. Webster, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Webster: Kristen, it’s really good to be with you. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, you were on the show last in 2018 when Dr. Timothy George was the host. And so Doug and I are so pleased that you are on the show with us today. Since it’s been a few years since you were a guest, why don’t you introduce yourself for those new listeners? A little bit about your back-story, where you are from, your family, and what you teach here at Beeson? >>Dr. Webster: Well, seeing that I’ve been here 14 years I better start saying that I’m from Birmingham. It’s been a long route maybe to get there. I grew up in Buffalo, New York. About ten years in the Chicago area, college and masters. And then 11 years in Toronto, Canada working on my doctorate and teaching in the seminary and pastoring a small urban church. And from there, three years in Bloomington, Indiana, three in Denver, Colorado, and 14 years in San Diego as pastor of First Presbyterian Church there. So, it’s been a wonderful journey. It’s still ongoing. The Lord is good. >>Doug Sweeney: Doug, as we said at the top of the show we want to talk about your latest book called, “Parables: Jesus’ Friendly Subversive Speech.” The title itself is intriguing. Tell us what you mean by that? What is “friendly subversive speech?” Why did Jesus engage in it? Just offer a little intro to the book for our readers. What are you trying to do in this book? >>Dr. Webster: Sure. There’s a story behind this book. And it came out of working on the Sermon on the Mount, and spending four Wednesday nights teaching in a church about an hour from here. So, driving through traffic, winding up at the church, having dinner with the people, and then working on the Sermon on the Mount. And I just wasn’t getting through. Each night got worse. I thought, “I’ve got to find some sort of strategy that’s different.” The last night I was walking out. I audibly said to myself, “This is why Jesus gave parables.” I had been speaking to a group of people who wanted to interpret the Sermon on the Mount by their opinions. And I think Jesus reached a kind of communicational impasse. I think it’s very clear in Matthew because in the build up to Matthew 13, where Matthew groups most of these Kingdom parables, the pressure on Jesus is growing. The opposition is becoming more entrenched. They’re plotting his death. His family actually shows up to take him under their charge because they thought he was crazy, out of his mind. And the crowd yet is building. The parables became a communicational strategy that put off the opposition because they couldn’t quite understand what he was doing. It kept the crowd interested and attracted to Jesus. And it invited the disciples into a deeper discussion of what the meaning of the gospel was. And so it wasn’t until about a year ago, or two years ago now, that I saw that there was a communicational strategy at work in the parables. It was a way of keeping everybody still listening, but at the level at which they wanted to listen. >>Doug Sweeney: And is that what you mean by the word “subversive” in the title? >>Dr. Webster: Right. >>Doug Sweeney: What’s the significance of that word? >>Dr. Webster: It’s an inviting method of communication. The religious leaders, I think, often knew Jesus was talking about them, but they couldn’t nail him to that. So, it was subversive in that sense, and it invited the disciples into the discussion. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Webster, for many in the church the parables can just be confusing and difficult to read and understand, especially given the differences in our cultures. So, how would you suggest laity read the parables and try to understand them and their significance for our lives today? >>Dr. Webster: Well, there’s a lot to be said in response to that question, Kristen. The stories may strike us as very simple on the surface. But invariably each parable has kind of an Old Testament root. It doesn’t just spring from nowhere. And of course Jesus didn’t invent parables. Remember Nathan’s famous parable to King David? So, parables were part of the culture. The simple story that has an Old Testament root and I encourage people to realize always the first principle for parables is who’s telling the story? Jesus is telling the story. So, what makes the story unique? Because Jesus is telling it. The second thing is did Jesus have to die because of this story? And invariably the answer is, “Yes, he did.” So, there is a theological understanding, a theological context. And when you take the parables in the context of the gospels, whether in Matthew or Luke, which the principle parable resource, Matthew and Luke, invariably the context both in Luke and Matthew give us a clue and a key for understanding that story. But you’ve got to be interested. You have to be interested in the story. You have to be like the disciples asking questions about what does this mean? Because you can usually read it on a moralistic level. So, the parable of the Good Samaritan, that’s fine, we should help people. We should go out of our way to help people. And that’s oftentimes how it’s been interpreted. You take it a step further, though, and realize that Deuteronomy 6, Leviticus 19, these passages are coming into play and the whole meaning of the law. And the outcome being that Jesus is like the Good Samaritan in going to the cross. Luke 9:51 says, “He’s set it face towards Jerusalem.” So, that’s the context for this. And also even a step further, Isaiah’s suffering servant is not only the Good Samaritan who helps, but he’s also the man in the ditch who goes to the ditch in order to save us. So, there’s a lot of theological interpretation that comes with that, that’s not allegorizing but it’s using the parable as I think Luke in this case intended it. >>Doug Sweeney: We want to give our listeners a feel for what they’ll get if they read the book. Doug, my next question to you might take a little while to answer. But we want our listeners to know that you go parable by parable, chapter by chapter, through about 22 different parables in the gospels in your book. And give us a feel for what you do in these chapters. Would you pick just a couple, two or three, of the parables that you write about in the book and kind of lay them out for us? Unpack them for us in the way that you do in the chapters of the book itself. >>Dr. Webster: Several things I try to do ... I guess it will be up to the reader as to whether or not I achieve this, but I do try to draw out the Old Testament background for it. And I do try to understand what theologians and exegetes have said about the parable. And then I try to surround it with pastoral story. Let’s take the parable of the lost son. Or the waiting father. And I would tell, in that case in the book, I’d tell a pastoral story of hearing that parable used at a memorial service. A memorial service for a person in his 80’s who I loved a great deal, really respected his ministry and his heart for the Lord. And I listened, he had a profound impact on young people. And there was 200 young people at this service for this 80 plus year old person who had died from congestive heart failure. But he had spent years becoming very accessible to young people and telling the gospel. And there was a genuineness about him. You could hear a pin drop in the memorial service with these young people talking about how Paul Hummerson had impacted their life for Christ. Well then the pastor got up and he acted almost as if nothing had been said about the gospel. And he proceeded to say, “My job is to now tell you the gospel.” And the restlessness in the crowd just spread. And he said, “Paul Hummerson at some point knew that he was lost. Like this lost prodigal son.” And he told the story. All out of the context of Paul Hummerson being lost and needing Christ. In this case, what the pastor failed to see was that there’s three main characters in this parable. There’s the elder son, the younger son, and there’s the father. And Paul Hummerson didn’t struggle with a kind of religious uptightness or legalism. These young people didn’t know him as any kind of state of lostness. But they did know him as a loving father figure who represented the love of God to them in a most profound way. So, I just see the tremendous pastoral value of parables. And it might cause us to rethink how we approach them. Prayer and in the Spirit is just as important, I guess, as reading the commentaries for understanding those dimensions. This book reflects many years of preaching the parables and then kind of rethinking them in the light of some of our best scholarship. >>Kristen Padilla: Speaking of preaching, Dr. Webster, you are a seasoned preacher. You teach students here how to preach. How can or should pastors preach the parables? Or how shouldn’t they? – in an example you just gave. What should pastors keep in mind as they’re writing sermons on the parables? You perhaps have already hinted at this, but are parables to be reduced down to one principle and that’s the principle we hand our people? Or is there a better way to preach the parables? >>Dr. Webster: Yeah, that’s a big question, Kristen. (laughs) A hermeneutical question, for sure. What to keep in mind? One, it’s interesting because I hear some people say you should never preach a parable as an isolated aspect of the text. And I agree with that, but it’s interesting that Luke pulls the parables into the teaching ministry of Jesus as a point of illustration. So, he’ll use the parables to illustrate a Sermon on the Mount truth. Matthew grouped all the parables together and presented them as a collection. I think it’s very important to trust how the gospels frame the parables. So, what is said before and what is said after is crucial to their interpretation. And again, like I said before, remember Jesus is giving the parable. Remember that Jesus is preaching the Old Testament. That Jesus had to die in order to present this truth of the gospel. And that it’s never just a story. It’s always the gospel told slant. So, there’s a lot more depth to the parable than we often give it credit. And I think it’s most effective to try to link it to stories as well. >>Doug Sweeney: I want to help our listeners out by asking you, Doug, what parables are. Obviously this is a loaded question as well. There’s all kinds of conversation about this in scholarly literature. And this is a question that we might well have begun with before we got into the details of your book. But I think it makes really good sense toward the end of a conversation like this. What do we call parables? What is it that all these things that we call parables have in common? And what do you love about it? What’s so wonderful about parables? What was Jesus able to do with parables that he didn’t do in quite the same way in his other forms of teaching? >>Dr. Webster: Well, by beginning with his story, because I think stories outweigh propositions usually in the mind of the listener. So, the story aspect is important. It gives me a lead in, in preaching. Also, the opportunity to maybe get at truth indirectly. I think the soul is like ... Parker Palmer uses this illustration ... the soul is like a scared animal and easily made nervous to run off. The parables may, just like Nathan to David, allows an entrance into you thinking about something before the truth or the trigger is pulled. So, there’s that aspect. Parable is very simply something that’s thrown up alongside the truth of the gospel in order for us to get another insight, understanding, crack at the gospel. And I have 22 chapters. The Lord gave us quite a repertoire of story material. And I think almost anything that the gospel proclaims is storied in parables. It’s an art form the way Jesus did it. Anything that occurs to you in response to that? >>Doug Sweeney: No, that’s great. And obviously it’s kind of a difficult question to answer, especially if you’ve been hanging out in seminaries for many years and you know the New Testament literature about it. But I think for a lot of listeners they kind of know what a parable is. They’ve read a lot of the things that go by the name of parable in the Bible, but I thought it was a good opportunity to get a word about how to read parables and understand them for what they are from a real expert in them. >>Dr. Webster: Well, I wouldn’t say I’m an expert. I’m a pastor who has used parables. Kristen asked before about one point or two points. I think I have an allergy to that question because I’ve heard lectures that are as dry and as mundane as ever on the parables. Just use the story. Get into the story. Don’t debate how many points. Now, if we go back to the story of the Good Samaritan, Augustine allegorizes that parable tremendously. So, the man in the ditch is Adam who has fallen from grace. The Levite and the Priest stand for the law. And the innkeeper is Paul. He just takes everything apart. I’d actually prefer that to the kind of gotcha interpretation of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Which concludes ... Christ says, “Go and do it.” You can’t do it, only Jesus can do it. Jesus died for your sins. Jesus means for us to love our neighbor as ourselves. And the only means by which we can do that is by the grace of Christ. It’s not on the basis of merit, on the basis of mercy, but that’s what he meant. Go and do this. And he didn’t say that in order to trap us into thinking that some self righteous pride would be driving us. So, again, Augustine would be more favorable on that parable than the kind of gotcha theologians of today. >>Kristen Padilla: You just touched on this, but I’ve heard you say in our conversation so far the word “gospel” as it relates to the parables. And I don’t want to assume that all of our listeners can articulate exactly what the gospel is. And you did just articulate the gospel, but I wonder if you might say a word more about how you understand that gospel message, especially as it relates to the parables? >>Dr. Webster: Well, the gospel is the grace of Christ that’s been provided by his life, death, and resurrection. And the hope of that resurrection and the atoning sacrifice of his death. And that’s the basis, the mercy of God extended to us through Christ. And it’s mercy over merit. If I was going to give another title to my book it would be, “Mercy Over Merit.” And I think in each parable that’s the controlling theme: God’s mercy, not my merit. And that comes through. So, that squelches the moralistic interpretation of any parable. And I would suggest there’s an interesting ... Kevin Vanhoozer makes an interesting point about the sacraments and the parables. And just like the bread and the cup are objects that speak of the gospel, the parables are objects that speak of the gospel. And so there’s a concreteness, there’s a substance, there’s a visibility about the gospel that comes through the stories, the parables. Just as there is when we take the bread and drink the cup. There’s a sacramental feel to these parables. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. Webster, we always like to conclude our interviews with guests by asking them what the Lord has been teaching them recently. And we’d love to ask you that question as well. Over the course of the summer, as the new fall term has begun, are there some things that God has been doing in your life, showing you in your life, teaching you that we might conclude with as a way of edifying our listeners? >>Dr. Webster: You know, I turned 70 this summer. I think I thought that when I was at this age I’d be calmer, more restful, less impatient. And my students are teaching me all over again. Slowing down, taking it easy, don’t push my material too much, too fast. Let them take it in. And I guess I didn’t at this stage think I’d still have to learn these lessons. But I am. (laughs) So, yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: So, slow down. That’s your word to our listeners. (laughs) At least if you’re like Dr. Webster, slow down. That’s a good word. Well, thank you Dr. Webster for being with us. Think you for this wonderful book. I mentioned before we started recording this episode that my own wife, Wilma, is in the middle of reading this book right now. And she commends it heartily. It is a wonderful set of interpretations of Jesus’ own parables. So, please, if you can get a copy, please get it and read it. Thank you, listeners, for being with us. Thank you, Dr. Webster, for writing this great book. Please continue to tune in and pray for the students, faculty, and staff at Beeson Divinity School. We stand in need of your prayers and your support. We love you very much. We say goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.