Beeson Podcast, Episode #564 Dr. Jennifer McNutt Aug.31, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney, and I am here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. School is back in session and fall is just around the corner. Things are buzzing here on campus and we hope you are thriving in the Lord Jesus today. Before we introduce today’s guest, let me take a moment to remind you of the resources we offer to all of your friends of Beeson on our website. There are video recordings of chapel sermons and lectures, articles and blog posts written by professors, past podcast episodes, and more under the news and media tab on our website: www.BeesonDivinity.com. These are meant to aide and encourage all our brothers and sisters in Christ in the larger Beeson family and that includes you. And speaking of resources available to you, let me remind you that Beeson’s Lay Academy of Theology classes start in late September. You can sign up to attend in person or online. And our Beeson alumni conference will convene November 4th-6th. Tickets are on sale. Find out more information about both of these things at www.BeesonDivinity.com. Kristen, who do we have on the show today? >>Kristen Padilla: Hi, everyone. We have a friend of mine on the show today. I’m really excited about today’s guest. We have Dr. Jennifer Powell McNutt. She is the Franklin S. Dyrness Associate Professor in Biblical and Theological Studies at Wheaton College. She is an ordained teaching elder in the PC USA and is co-president of McNuttshell Ministries Inc with her husband, the Reverend Dr. David McNutt. And Jennifer and David have three children. Welcome, Jennifer, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Jennifer McNutt: Thank you. It’s great to be with you all. >>Kristen Padilla: We always like to begin by allowing our guest to give a word of introduction themselves. And so would love to hear briefly just a little bit more about you, your background, where you are from, your family, anything that you want to share about your spiritual upbringing? >>Jennifer McNutt: Great, thank you so much! Well, I live in the Midwest, but I’m actually a California girl. (laughs) My origin and my faith begins in California at Fuller Seminary where my parents first met. So, I always like to say that I went to seminary in the womb. That was the beginning of the trajectory that I was on. So, whether I liked it or not. (laughs) Yeah, so my parents were pastors and co-pastors and I grew up as a pastor’s kid in California, and then in Texas where my parents were doing different ministries there. And just was so grateful for the Christian education that I received. I ended up at Westmont College back in California with my brother. That was really special. And studying biblical languages as my primary concentration. I really thought I was going to go into biblical studies, which is an important part of my own journey. And ended up at Princeton Seminary where just like my mother before me I met my future husband. And just had some fantastic training there and just growing in my faith and my sense of calling. David and I got married and ended up abroad. So, we headed to St. Andrews, Scotland, where I started my PhD in history. And he was working on a masters degree at the divinity school, second masters degree. And we just loved our time in Scotland. It was a dream. I learned to play golf. (laughs) Because one should play golf when they’re in Scotland. Yeah, and then we ended up in Cambridge where my husband started his PhD and that brought us to Wheaton College where we’re starting our 14th year here and are just so grateful our kids are thriving in a wonderful place. So, that kind of brings us up to the present day. But feel free to ask any follow up questions. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, I have a follow up question. Of course, there’s nothing more important to study than the bible, the Word of God. But I personally, as a church history teacher, am cheering for the people who wind up in the field of church history. And I am glad that you wound up in the field of church history, historical theology. I’ve read, I think, most of your work with great admiration. You’re a specialist in almost everything from the 16th to the 18th century in Europe, a lot of early modern protestant history is central to your work. But I don’t want to tell our listeners all about your work, I want you to. Can you give us ... I know this is hard. But just in a few minutes can you tell our listeners what kinds of scholarship you’ve done over the years? >>Jennifer McNutt: Yes, absolutely. I am so interested in that time period from the 16th century through the 18th century. There’s just so much disruption and transformation and I feel like it’s such a pivotal period for helping us to even understand our world today. So, I have loved just tracking especially the reformed tradition, studying John Calvin - that actually was something I began as a teenager; became interested in Calvin after traveling to Geneva and reading the Institutes. I’ve continued to really love and appreciate that work. So, my dissertation was actually on the enlightenment and on Calvin’s clerical legacy in Geneva during the 18th century. You know a little bit about that century, Doug. (laughs) So, that led me to my first book, “Calvin Meets Voltaire.” I’ve just experienced that as a child just growing up in the ministry of the church because of my family. So, I’m just always fascinated in clergy and kind of the complexities that they face. Styles of the past and how they communicate theology to congregants in the pews. Those are some things that really excite me and interest me. So, that was a great book and it opened up some conversations on science and Christianity, just because the clergy I was working on were engaged in a scientific study of cutting edge work at the time. And so that’s been a wonderful area for me to expand in and also with my work at churches. Then just engaging ... I became really fascinated in the bible and the translation, the re-translation of the bible over time and over generations as languages changed, [citation 00:07:25] changes. And so my work moved into the history of the French bible, which is the bible that Calvin was involved in, in shaping and forming and assisting in translation and writing prefaces for. So, that work has really brought me into bible history. The history of the formation of the bible, it’s material culture, and that has just opened up a whole new vista of research on French history and the French tradition. Geneva and France are so closely connected to each other, it’s really hard to do. You can’t isolate them from each other, frankly. So, this project on the history of the French bible has also lended itself beautifully and given me kind of insight and reflection on who John Calvin was and his ministry to people who were in exile, who were refugees, and that has helped me to understand the function, role, and significance of the French bible in its time. So, there’s a few different projects I’ve worked on. I’m also editing the Oxford Handbook of the Bible and the Reformation. So, I kind of feel like I’ve come back to biblical studies. Now I get to talk about the history of its translation and interpretation by the tradition. >>Kristen Padilla: That’s really exciting, Jennifer. And as it relates to your research you, as I said, are a professor at Wheaton College. And so I’d love for you to just share a little bit about what you teach there and more about the college itself and your school for those few people who do not know much about Wheaton College. And just what you enjoy about your work as a college professor? >>Jennifer McNutt: Well, thank you. I think that a lot of people know about Wheaton College, but they don’t know that Wheaton has a graduate school. (laughs) That’s often been a secret, kind of unfortunately. So, I think it’s good to just talk about that. We have MA programs. We don’t have an MDiv, though, by the way. But we do have MA programs in history of Christianity and theology and biblical exegesis, and I’ve been really just honored and privileged to have a chance to really work with those programs closely and help to shape them, especially the history of Christianity MA program, as director for well over a decade. It’s very exciting to get to equip students coming out of their college experience and seeking to do for their academic study more focused work in a particular discipline. And then oftentimes, the Lord has used them in a multitude of ways, but oftentimes they aren’t really hoping to go on to do PhD, but of course they do a variety of things. I love to be part of that journey of discernment and equipping. That’s just my favorite thing. The things that I teach are the Reformation, no big surprise there, and John Calvin. (laughs) And his theology. But I am getting to teach a new class that I’m going to co-teach with a physics professor on Christianity [inaudible 00:10:47] just the Christian views of the cosmos throughout history and thinking through this amazing period of space exploration that we’re all looking into right now thinking theologically about that. So, there’s some room also for creative work outside of my specific discipline, too, which has been really fun. I think just the things that I love about Wheaton are similar to Beeson, right? Just the integration of faith and learning, being able to do that in the classroom [inaudible 00:11:21] students [inaudible 00:11:23]. That is such a gift. At least in terms of teaching the Reformation at this historic protestant institution, I’m just really grateful that I have a chance to pass on that history and to help students sort of navigate and understand their traditions that they come from and what it means to be ... Not all the students are protestant but most of them are, and what it means to be a protestant, what it doesn’t mean. Some of the complexities of that. And so that’s, I feel like, another way in which the Lord has used me in this context. >>Doug Sweeney: Dr. McNutt, we are pleased to say that you were the keynote speaker at our inaugural conference of the Center for the Women in Ministry here at Beeson Divinity School just this summer. And by all accounts it was wonderful. It was a conference for women so I was not there personally but I was sort of hovering in the wings hoping everything would go well and praying for you all, and heard great things. And we want to ask you about your experience at the conference in just a minute. But what I want to ask you about first is your approach to the question of women in ministry. Beeson Divinity School, like Wheaton College, has complimentarian women and egalitarian women, and people from lots of different kinds of churches. You, yourself, are an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church. What was your journey like for ordination and do you have any wisdom or words of encouragement for either current Beeson female students or women who are dealing with questions related to God’s calling on their lives and gifting for ministry? >>Jennifer McNutt: Yeah, thank you, that’s a big beautiful question. I’ll try my best. (laughs) Yeah, so, my own journey, I grew up in the Presbyterian Church, PCUSA, so I was in a community that accepted women in ministry. I will say, it didn’t always work out that way, culturally speaking. There was a big difference in different parts of the country where there was more acceptance. So, that still kind of differed. But on the whole, I think I received a lot of support from my own denomination. And I’m very grateful for that. But I do know and sympathize and appreciate how hard it is when you want to be faithful to scripture, you want to be faithful to the Lord, that’s the most important thing, and you feel this calling on your life and your church has the different view of what is permitted for you. And I think that I really want to empathize with that situation and to encourage women to keep thinking faithfully God’s calling, just keep studying that, to seek out mentorship and support. There are different perspectives on this issue. And there are good reasons why people support women in ministry. There’s just a lot of great examples of women in ministry in scripture. That’s probably the best reason why this is a good thing for the church. So, rather than seeing it as like, “If I pursue this I’m going against scripture,” I don’t think you have to arrive at that conclusion. I think it’s important that you don’t go against the reading of scripture. I have experienced some of complexity of that, of trying to stand in different spaces and be faithful in different spaces to connect with people with different perspectives on that issue, and my heart’s desire usually is, “Can we just focus on Christ?” That’s what I would rather do. I hope that there will be more spaces where we can sort of see that there are good reasons to support women in ministry, biblical reasons, and that we can sort of build a bridge. >>Kristen Padilla: Jennifer, I was so pleased that you were the first speaker for our first Women In Ministry conference. Before we even planned the conference I knew I wanted you to speak at it. And you did, as Doug already said, such a wonderful job. The theme of this particular conference, the theme of your talks was Minster Like the Magdalene. I thought you did a wonderful job at weaving together the biblical story plus church history and then just practically speaking your own story your own call to ministry and how Mary’s story impacts us women pursuing ministry. So, most of our listeners weren’t there. So, I’m wondering if you can summarize your talks, or kind of give us the high level overview of your lectures and what women in ministry can take away from her story? >>Jennifer McNutt: Yes. Wonderful. Well, I was so honored, Kristen, at your invitation. And it was just such a fantastic time together. The Holy Spirit was really present. And I loved our worship and our conversations. I really hope that Beeson is able to do this on an annual or every two years or whatever. It’s just so worth it. I was excited to talk about Minister Like The Magdalene. One thing that is really important from the Reformation era in how people related to scripture is that they actually read their lives through the lens of scripture. They see their own story as it plays out in the text. On the one hand that is a way for you to resonate with doubting Thomas or Jonah or whatever it might be. (laughs) Something you’re struggling with. But it’s also a way for you to find an exemplar of what it means to live as faithful Christians. So, that’s a part of it. And then the other part of it, I think, is that it is an affirmation of the fact that God is consistent in how he is faithful to us. And that God is ... it’s a covenantal way of thinking about God’s actions from the Old to the New Testament. Mary Magdalene is such a fascinating women because she has this first encounter, according to John’s Gospel and with Matthew Gospel as well though with other women, this first encounter with the resurrected Lord. This incredible story. The most pivotal moment of salvation history, really. And who is this woman? Who is Mary Magdalene? How can we learn from her? How can we see our lives through her story? That’s kind of the premise of what I was hoping and trying to do. But of course the question of, “Who is Mary Magdalene?” Is very challenging. She is actually kind of controversial. There’s a lot of different views about her and who she was and she’s been confused by other women. She’s been conflated. She has been, I would say, maligned in certain ways. So, it’s just kind of exciting to get to draw out her story. Some of the ground work that I did in order for us to encounter Mary Magdalene was for us to understand that scripture is doing something extraordinary for its time and for the genres of its time by highlighting, not only mentioning women and ordinary women, but also naming them. That is something special that’s taking place in scripture. And so we see a focus in on Luke 8. So, just want to encourage your listeners to read Luke 8 again. And to realize that even though when we think about Jesus we think about the 12 disciples, but that Jesus included women. They were there with him, traveling, as part of his traveling ministry. And that these women were singled out by scripture to be mentioned and to be named. And Mary Magdalene the most prominent among them. In fact, she’s named more than many of the disciples. She’s named because she has been healed by Christ and she becomes therefore a witness to his power and authority and to who he is and what he represents and what he’s bringing to God’s Kingdom. Then the text also highlights how the women ministered of their own resources. I think that’s just a paradigm shift for most people to realize that women were part of the ministry of Jesus. We see that all the way to Acts 1 where they’re in the upper room waiting faithfully, praying, and singing, and waiting for the Holy Spirit to come. And then you have Pentecost and this fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy that includes both men and women. And so all of that really matters as an affirmation, in my view, of women in ministry. So, that’s part of it. I wanted to just get into how Mary Magdalene’s story has been confused and conflated. Often with the Luke 7 text as a prostitute. In the history of the church she has been [inaudible 00:21:25] as a penitent sinner. She becomes the example of what it means to do penance. And so one of the things I wanted us to move away ... I wanted us to move away from that idea of her as a prostitute to realizing that the way the scripture introduces her is very different in that there’s no indication of that at all. Is she actually a woman who has been healed of demon possession? So, those are some of the moves that I had to make in order to kind of bring us to kind of some takeaways about her. And the first one I think is that you don’t have to have a perfect path to witness and minister and to be called in the case of Mary Magdalene to go and tell about the risen Lord. You don’t have to have those perfect paths in order to do that. And Mary Magdalene is a great example of that. That if you think about demon possession not as something that you have necessarily brought on yourself, but something that evil has done to you, and that happens to all of us. There are some sins that we do ourselves, but sometimes we are tainted by the hand of another. So, I think that actually is more in line with what the text says about her story. So, you don’t have to have this perfect path. I think the second is that we’re called to point to Christ and to persevere in that. I guess I’m a realist in this, but I really see in the particular I see the universal. That calling Mary Magdalene to proclaim the resurrection of Christ was not something that actually Jesus really needed to do. He could have revealed himself to the disciples later, but he gives her really such a gift. And this becomes confirmation of her [inaudible 00:23:31] and this is why the church has also thought about her as the apostle to the apostles. She has witnessed the risen Lord and she proclaims that he is risen. So, what we want to do, then, the takeaway is we want to point to Christ. We want to persevere in pointing to him. We want to make sure we represent him in our ministry. And I really think for women in ministry this conversation is different because to pursue ministry as a woman is not a power grab. (laughs) This is not an easy journey. The third thing I want to say is just that it’s hard to do that. And that Mary was not believed at first. But she proclaimed, she ran, she proclaimed even when she was not received [inaudible 00:24:29] that was a calling that came directly from Christ. So, I think those were kind of my main takeaways. But maybe you remember something, Kristen. (laughs) >>Kristen Padilla: I really appreciated that you kept it so Christ centered throughout all of your talks. And that you did really encourage all women. And this is a good word for men, too, that our ministries are not about us but about proclaiming and pointing to Jesus Christ. >>Jennifer McNutt: That’s right. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Jennifer. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a great word, Jennifer, and Kristen together. Dr. McNutt, we’ve talked about how one thing you and I have in common is the ministry of church history. Another thing that you and I have in common is that we’re both founding board members of the Center for Women in Ministry at Beeson Divinity School. Would you tell our listeners just a little bit about ... So, when Kristen called you and asked you to serve in this way, you live hundreds of miles away. You didn’t have to say “yes.” You’re a busy person. Why did you agree to serve on the board of this center? And what is it that gets you excited about it? >>Jennifer McNutt: Thank you. I am so honored to have been asked and to participate in the growth and thriving of the center right now at this critical juncture. Well, Kristen and I met because my husband said, “I met Kristen Padilla. You have to meet her. She will be one of your close friends.” (laughs) And so we had a wonderful lunch and talked and shared about, I think it was [inaudible 00:26:07] or UTS maybe and just shared our just desire to support women who have gifts and want to be equipped and want to serve the church, and just have a heart for the church. So, yeah, I think we just resonated in that lunch meeting and I got to hear her vision and was really excited about that. To me, the center is doing something really special right now. So often we hear a common refrain which is, “There are no women doing this or that.” (laughs) And that’s just not true. But I think we don’t know each other as well. We’re not well connected. I’ve reflected on this a lot because I even experienced it in my own denomination. And I think that it has a lot to do with just our different denominational affiliations that leave us kind of feeling isolated in our different sectors of the church. I really see the center, and it seems like Beeson especially because of the kinds of students that come from all different backgrounds and traditions just has this special role where it can become sort of a beacon that draws students and ministers, female ministers, together to have a community. A community that’s encouraging and supportive and that is prayerful, that has put Christ at the center, and that’s a resource. I love some of the projects that are happening right now, giving women opportunities to get field education. I’m not sure what you call it at Beeson, but we called it “field education” at Princeton. (laughs) That can be really difficult to navigate. So, that’s just one of the many things that I think is wonderful about the center and the conference. It was just so fabulous, it really was. I would say one of the highlights of my life to get to be part of that and to get to be with all those women who love the Lord and want to know each other and encourage each other. I’m a huge fan. >>Kristen Padilla: And I’m a fan of you and just grateful for you and Dr. Sweeney and the others who serve on the board for being not only a sounding board but a prayer team and a cheer team of the work that we’re doing. So, I’m very grateful. Jennifer, we always like to end these podcasts by hearing what the Lord is doing in your life these days. Anything that he’s teaching you in your devotional time that would encourage our listeners? >>Jennifer McNutt: Yeah. I’ve been asked a lot recently to talk about life/work balance. (laughs) And so it’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about. But my answer is very reformed and it’s just I’m not my own. I just keep coming back to that. That is just the heart for me of Calvin’s theology, of my tradition I think is a major emphasis. My time, my life, my calling, my gifts – all good things come from him and they are his. I really want to give it all to him. So, I’ve been thinking a lot about that, thinking about what it means to abide in him, to keep that at the forefront, this reminder that our lives are in his hands. Maybe it’s a lesson that has been more acute to me in these days of the pandemic where we really are sort of confronted with the reality of our own finitude. And that’s not a bad thing. (laughs) When it leads us to turn to Christ and to the promise of the resurrection and eternal life in him. And to really make good use of the time that we have on earth now. And that’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about. I did want to read Colossians 3:23 because this passage keeps coming up with me the whole summer. And it’s one that I’ve been trying to be mindful of. “Whatever your task, put yourselves into it as done for the Lord and not for your masters; that you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You serve the Lord Christ.” That’s my reminder. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you, Dr. McNutt. Dear listeners, let’s go serve the Lord Christ. You’ve been listening to Dr. Jennifer Powell McNutt. She is the Franklin S. Dyrness Associate Professor in Biblical and Theological Studies at Wheaton College. She’s a minister in the Presbyterian Church USA. She is co-president of McNuttshell Ministries, Inc. with her husband, another good friend, Dave McNutt. She has three kids. She’s a very busy person, but it sounds like she is stewarding her time very well. Thank you, Dr. McNutt, for being with us. Thank you, listeners, for joining us. We love you and we say “goodbye” for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.