Beeson Podcast, Episode #563 Tom Fuller, Donald Guthrie Aug. 23, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. And today on the show we have two friends here to talk about resilience in ministry and share about our first ever Beeson Alumni Conference taking place here on campus November 4th through the 6th at which we’ll work for two days on resilience in ministry, the theme of today’s show, under the guidance of one of today’s guests. We are eager to welcome alumni back to Beeson for what we promise will be a wonderful homecoming event. Learn more and register online at www.BeesonDivinity.com/events. Just one more announcement before we dive in. On Tuesday, August 31st – next week – we will launch our fall chapel series at 11:00 AM with an opening convocation ceremony in Hodges Chapel. You are welcome to attend. We’d love to see you there. But please stop by our website, www.BeesonDivinity.com/worship, to get up to speed on any COVID protocols we might need to have in place. Now, Kristen, would you please introduce today’s guests, and get our conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Yes, thank you Doug. And hello everyone. Welcome to this week’s Beeson Podcast episode. We have with us today two guests. Our own, Dr. Tom Fuller, who you all probably know very well. He is Associate Dean at Beeson Divinity School. He’s also the Director of our Thriving Pastors Initiative here as well. Our second guest is Dr. Donald Guthrie. He is the Executive Director of the Center for Transformational Churches at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois. And he is a co-author of a book called, “Resilient Ministry: What Pastors Told Us About Surviving and Thriving.” Which we’ll talk to him about today. So, welcome Dr. Fuller and Dr. Guthrie to the Beeson Podcast. Most, if not all, of our listeners will know you, Tom. I’ve mentioned that. But many of our listeners probably don’t know you, Donald. And so I would love it if you could just introduce yourself to our listeners briefly. Where are you from, your spiritual journey, family, any word that you want to give us today? >>Dr. Guthrie: Sure, thanks Kristen. I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in a wonderful warm family; a couple of brothers and mom and dad and lots of extended relatives around. And we were in the Chevrolet business. So, I grew up working in a Chevrolet dealership, as we all did, for generations. That taught me how to work and taught me how to serve people because I had so many people I could watch do that so well. So, I’m grateful for that. I’m married now to Mary for 38 years and we have two grown kids. One is married. They live close by, which is sweet, so we get to see everybody even during COVID. It’s been challenging, of course. I’ve been in campus ministry, professionally, and local church ministry, and I taught at Covenant Seminary for many years, and now have been at Trinity, this has been my tenth year back here at Trinity. I head up the PhD program in Educational Studies here as well as what you already mentioned about the Center. So, good work. I’m a ruling elder in a local PCA church near Trinity. Full life. Enjoying it very much. >>Doug Sweeney: Thanks, Dr. Guthrie. Dr. Fuller, at the top of the show I announced again about our alumni conference coming up in November. I bet a few of our listeners would like to know just a little bit more about what we’ll do when we gather together under Dr. Guthrie’s teaching. Could you share with us what our plans are? What are we trying to do at this conference? >>Dr. Fuller: We’re really looking forward to doing this and for this to be the first time that we are hosting an alumni conference. Such an expansive gathering for our alumni. So, that’s exciting. We’d hoped to do it before now, but COVID has prevented us from doing so in the last couple of years. So, we’re hoping and praying for success this year. This idea for the alumni conference was part of the proposal that we submitted to the Lily Endowment for the Thriving Pastors Initiative. The Thriving Pastors Initiative is really, in broad respects, intended to strengthen the connections that pastors have with one another. I could go into more about the project itself, but in respect to the conference this was one of the chief ways we saw an opportunity to bring pastors together, beginning with our own folks, beginning with Beeson alumni with whom we already have strong relations. But to bring them together to strengthen the bonds and ties between and among them; forge new ones, particularly between and among alumni who maybe were not here at the same time, and have opportunity to get to know one another there and to be encouraged and built up personally and in their ministries also, and to strengthen, again, those ties that we, as a school, have with them. So, it’s been conceived with those ideas in mind. What we’ve put together in terms of the program for the conference, I think and hope is going to help us achieve that. We’ll have times of worship together. We’ll begin with worship on that Thursday evening as we kick off the conference. We will end the conference in a time of worship as well. We’ll have times for good fellowship and celebration. We’ll have a banquet on Friday night. That will be a great opportunity for us to enjoy time around the table, to hear more about what the Lord is doing at Beeson Divinity School these days, and what our plans are going forward to recognize and celebrate the alumnus of the year on that evening, so that will be a very nice time and also a time of entertainment to end the banquet with. And then, of course, Dr. Guthrie and what he will bring in speaking to us about resilience in ministry. There are three of those plenary sessions built in. Two of those on Friday and then the third on Saturday morning before we close in worship and there will be small break out times after that for discussing what we have heard from his presentations. And I hope there as well as in the hallways and around the lunch tables and at other times alumni will have opportunities just to talk about what the Lord is doing in their lives these days and how they’re doing and how they can help and pray for one another. And the kind of things that God’s gift of community to us helps us to endure in ministry and to know that ministry resilience among other things. So, that’s in broad strokes what the plan for the conference is and with every meeting and drawing closer to it, I know we are getting more excited here at Beeson about the prospect of having a good turn out and what this can mean in the lives of our alumni. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Fuller, we’ve been communicating with folks that it’s going to take place in conjunction with Samford’s homecoming week. And there’s another exciting event happening that week. Can you share with us in what ways our alumni can expect or maybe choose to also be involved in Samford homecoming events? I know there is one particular event on Saturday that’s going to bring the two together. And then secondly, tell our alumni how they can register and about the early bird discount. >>Dr. Fuller: Thank you. Yes, Kristen, it’s going to be a big week at Samford University and Beeson Divinity School, in general. On Thursday, we have the events of the inauguration of Samford’s 19th president, Dr. Beck Taylor. So, that will be a joyous occasion for the Samford community. Some of those events will extend on into Friday and Saturday also, which as you mentioned, is Samford’s homecoming weekend with all of the usual festivities attached to it. We’re really happy to be able to be doing this in conjunction with homecoming, especially for those who might be both Samford as well as Beeson graduates, and we have a fair number of those. But people can come and be a part of the alumni conference and as you mentioned, the concluding event of the conference will be that final worship service on Saturday at 10:15 to which not only are the alumni conference attendees welcome but any who are here to attend the homecoming festivities can also join us and be a part of that time of worship together. So, we think that is a nice transition and overlap there for both events. For registering, you can of course go to www.BeesonDivinity.com and under the alumni tab you will see alumni events and clicking on alumni events you can scroll down to see the alumni conference and there is a link there that you can use to register through Eventbrite, and pay the modest registration fee, and give your information to get registered for that. If you do so between now and September 1st you will gain some discount, an early bird discount. I believe that’s a discount of about $15 off of the normal price. It will be $60 now I believe or $75 after September 1st. And so hope everyone will try to take advantage of that early bird discount. >>Doug Sweeney: And of course Dr. Guthrie will be our keynote speaker. Dr. Guthrie, we invited you to serve as our keynote speaker because we’ve all been blessed by your work on resilience in pastoral ministry. We want to let our podcast audience know that you’re the co-author of a very important book entitled, “Resilient Ministry: What Pastors Told Us About Surviving and Thriving.” We know that you’ve been doing pastor’s conferences based on the research for that book in a number of places. And we’re eager to share the fruits of your labors with our folks as well. Could you give them a feel for what you did in that research and what you learned as you asked pastors about resilience and thriving in ministry? >>Dr. Guthrie: Sure. Thanks, Doug, for inviting me. It’s a real honor to participate with you all in welcoming back alumni. I’m really grateful for the opportunity. It’s interesting to me that your work in the Thriving Pastor’s Initiative, there at Beeson, is sort of the next iteration of what the Lily Endowment has been funding now for almost 20 years. That was kind of the genesis of our participation in a very similar project back in the 2000s when we took up what became a seven year study with pastors and their families. Just trying to listen while gathering [inaudible 00:11:52] for those years together different cohorts of them and their spouses that resulted in the book you just mentioned as well as a second book and a third book we’re working on as well. Both from those original gatherings, but also the ones that have gone on as you mentioned through the years. Back then, Lily, as they continued to provide much catalyst for this work, they have been pretty concerned about the state of not just the church in the US but the state of the pastorate in the US. We probably now know more than we ever have about the pastorate in the US. Many, many places, many institutes, more study ... Notre Dame did a huge study recently. Duke continues their work. Just lots and lots of input for which we’re all grateful, because if we ever could say we just didn’t know we can’t say we just didn’t know anymore. Both one of the challenges and one of the things we can, in the Lord’s kindness, utilize to address some of the challenges. So, that’s where it all started for my colleagues and I when we were in St. Louis at Covenant. And like you said it’s just been ongoing. We just were in Colorado Springs, actually, the same thing that you and Wilma joined us at a few years ago with some EFCA couples from around the country on these very themes. So, the work continues. Trying to listen well and trying to reflect back well what we hear with pastors and spouses. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Guthrie, I wonder if you can give our listeners a summary or a teaser of the three sessions that you’ll be leading at the conference that Dr. Fuller mentioned. Just allow me to read the titles of your sessions. You first one is called, “Exploring Five Themes for Sustainable Pastoral Service.” Your second session is titled, “Reviewing Current Research on Pastoral Wellbeing.” And your third session is called, “Cultivating Gospel Health in Local Church Systems.” So, can you talk us through what you hope to address with each session? >>Dr. Guthrie: Yeah. Sure. The first session is just a review of the five themes that were from the original research on resilient ministry. They have to do with formation of the pastor, actually, self care or self stewardship is number two, and then the third is emotional and cultural intelligence. The fourth theme is marriage and family and relationships in general. And the fifth theme is leadership and management. And what we’ll talk about is that when things are going well, what’s going well? Why? What’s contributing? And when things are not going well, why there, too? So, we have some healthy practices and unhealthy practices that we’ll address and discuss. As well as inviting the participants to just reflect a bit using these themes as kind of a diagnostic on their own. I think the most accurate description of the pandemic I’ve heard is it’s an accelerant and a revealer, and it certainly has accelerated everything as you all know in our midst. One of the things its accelerated for pastors is whatever loneliness and isolation they were already feeling, it’s accelerated. Whatever connectivity they were experiencing, it’s actually accelerated that, too. So, it’s a bit of a, as you can imagine, mixed bag of things. So, we’ll talk about those five themes in the first session. The second session, as I mentioned, lots and lots of current research happening. We just actually published a new work called, “Pastoral Wellbeing.” A denominational study of my own denomination, the PCA. “What did you do during COVID?” Well, that’s one of the things we did. (laughs) We talked to our own pastors. And now we’re going all over the place in our own denomination. I’ve just started a similar work with EFCA and hope to add at least a third or a fourth denomination so we can sort of pull together some cross denominational, cross fellowship feedback from both pastors and spouses. That’s a hole, by the way, that continues in research studies. We don’t know much from the spouse’s perspective and that’s a really important piece of this whole puzzle that we need to get on. So, I’ll talk a little bit about what we discovered in our study. I’ll talk a little bit about the largest study that’s been done on pastors from Notre Dame, Matt Blum’s work. And I’ll talk a little bit about what Duke, Clergy Health Initiative, is up to. And also the Indianapolis Center for Congregations, Tim Shapiro. We’re in a bit of a golden age here of discovery. So, just trying to do a survey of what kind of the latest is up to there. Then the third session is thinking about systems. I think one of the most interesting findings right now to highlight is the relationship between self care and systems contribution to the care of the pastor and vice versa. It’s interesting because self care is often been, it sounds crazy, up to the self. Like, it’s on you to care. Well, that’s true. You have responsibility to do that, to pay attention to your own wellbeing and those that God has given you to care for. But increasingly, it’s really clear that the system has a lot to do and should have a lot to do with the care of the pastor and the pastor’s family. So, I’m going to talk about that relationship of personal and systems care. And also what’s a healthy system, anyway? And would you know one if you ran into one? We’ve all worked in unhealthy systems, anxious systems sometimes they’re called, but what does it look like to work in a healthy gospel centered, grace filled ... A system that actually learns from its misses, that it’s not so tightly wound that a failure is a catastrophe? So, we’ll talk about systems. There’s lots, again, lots of really, really helpful tings out there. Lots of helpful resources right now on systems that pastors and the church in general has both come upon, but also that we’ve been producing ourselves as we’ve searched the scripture and as we’ve thought about this together. So, those are the three major areas of both from the research, from folks on the ground, and then some encouragement towards what this might look like in practice. >>Doug Sweeney: Donald, you and I and Kristen and Tom all know lots of pastors who are struggling these days in ministry. In fact, I was at a pastor’s conference myself recently where it just became crystal clear, being a pastor is always difficult. Being a pastor these days is especially difficult. Some folks are leaving the ministry. Some folks are barely holding on. I was with a couple of guys not long ago who confessed to being near panic attacks, which are very rare for these two guys in particular. It’s just a really tough time. And in a sense, the question I’m about to ask you is really hard to answer because you normally spend hundreds of pages answering it, or days at conferences answering it. But for listeners who are in pastoral ministry, or love and try to care for people in pastoral ministry, even maybe those who might not get to come to our conference and hear your couple of days worth of teaching ... Is there something you can say to them briefly by way of encouragement, by way of information, that would help them work on this challenge of resilience in pastoral ministry in difficult days? >>Dr. Guthrie: Yeah. That is obviously a huge question, Doug. Both really poignant right now in the midst of the ongoing pandemic that won’t go away, but also I’ve hard, too, from many pastors, “Is anybody going to be there when we get back?” I mean, that’s been a theme that I’ve heard for the last six months or so. Thankfully, there have been people that gather when we can gather. I guess the thing I would emphasize is the connectivity. I have often said that if ... obviously not just for pastors but each of us and all of us ... you connect you live, if you isolate you die. So, pulling back even further is just very unhealthy. And moving toward is at least giving yourself an opportunity in God’s kindness for yourself let alone the people that God has entrusted to your care. To experience this resilience in Christ that we’ll talk about at the conference. And I think by connections I mean think about a couple of different specific connections. One would be with family members, close family members, extended family members, both for your own sake, but also to check in with them. Second kind of group I would think about is fellow pastors. If you’re not in a particular sort of formal cohort, are you in some sort of a ministerium? Do you have at least a couple of colleagues locally or across the world that you can connect with? The third group of people I think about is what Blum calls “similar others.” I think this is really a potentially strong ring in our relationships. And it’s the people who are not pastors in our case, but they’re helpers, they’re social workers, they’re teachers, they’re professional counselors, nurses, docs, they’re helpers. Here’s what we know about helpers. Helpers are really good at helping, but they’re not really good at helping themselves. They’re really good at helping everybody else. So, connecting with these similar others that Blum talks about, these sorts of folks in these spheres of relationship, to potentially reach out to. I think I’ve been most encouraged to hear pastors who already had sought and had been receiving professional counseling, were still doing that, but lots of who hadn’t now are. So, I think that’s kind of another layer of connectivity that we need to pay attention to and really bless pastors and pray for them as they reach out and connect with these sorts of folks. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Fuller, I wonder if, as a follow up to that question, what you might share with us about what you’re hearing from alumni this year or longer than this year that the pandemic has been going on? And particularly I’m interested in more just about ways that you and your associate director, Stephen Johnson, are thinking about meeting some of those needs as it relates to the Thriving Pastor’s Initiative? >>Dr. Fuller: You know, we put together the proposal for the Thriving Pastor’s Initiative before the word COVID was in any of our vocabulary. And so this matter of helping to connect pastors, of strengthening relationships, of enhancing their ability to thrive in ministry, there couldn’t be a more needed thing in this time, as Dr. Guthrie’s just mentioned. And so what we are trying to do through things like formation of these pastoral peer groups that we call “thrive groups,” small groups of five to seven that do help connect pastors with one another, giving them safe places and opportunities to talk about some of the things that they’re going through and dealing with. Some of the needs that I think we are seeing particularly in this season, coming out of COVID, if we can put that in quotations, is just an abundance of questions. I’ve had more phone calls, emails, conversations with pastors who just want somebody to bounce something off of. They very much feel like they’re in uncharted territory. This returning re-gathering time is something that no one’s ever dealt with before in quite the same way. And so those fears and anxieties about whether anyone will be there when I get back, about how do we return, where do I begin in my teaching and preaching ministry? What things do we need to be giving priority to? Just all kinds of questions. As well as the fact that many of them feel very depleted and are struggling themselves and/or have heard about many, many peers who have decided to drop out of ministry, and so forth. So, they’re keenly aware of just the real tension that there is there in their lives, and their congregation’s lives, and the lives of many peers. So, through the thrive group component of our project, through the threads events that we’re having on a monthly basis, just informational kinds of meetings on different topics related to thriving ministry, we have several of those already planned for this fall, and through these opportunities like the alumni conference and other events that will help bring them together and give them some of those opportunities to engage with one another, to ask some of those questions and discuss some of these things together. I’ve seen some relieved faces already just among some of the pastors who were just so happy to have been able to get together and have lunch with one or two others to talk about some of the things that they’re really stressing about and wondering about. And just to hear some feedback from someone else about that. So, connecting them in those ways, giving them opportunities to talk and to help one another. One other thing I’ll mention very quickly that we’re doing that’s a very new initiative that’s a part of our work is beginning this fall. We’re offering continuing education courses for our Beeson alumni. Not for credit. Not any kind of degree seeking type of curriculum. But ways that they can continue to learn, which I think, too, is one of those pieces of having a resilient and thriving ministry is staying stimulated intellectually and for the sake of continuing to grow and develop as a pastor. And so we’re hoping that these continuing ed courses, which you can also find at alumni events on the Beeson website, will be one more place and way that our alumni can connect with one another, stay connected to the school, find opportunities to really be encouraged and not get isolated, but continue to have that community of practicing that community spiritually through those means. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, we’re almost out of time, but Kristen and I usually enjoy concluding these interviews by asking our guests about some of the things that the Lord has been teaching them, even in their own devotional lives in recent days. We do this as a way to edify and encourage our listeners and wrap these conversations up well. And I wonder if we could ask that question of each of you in turn, maybe starting with you, Tom, so that Dr. Guthrie could have the last word on this interview? Is there one thing, or one or two things that you would want to point out that you’ve been learning from the Lord these days that might be helpful to our listeners? >>Dr. Fuller: You know related so much to this COVID pandemic and all that we have been going through whether as an educational institution or as a church or families, communities, so much of our time has been occupied really with just getting through and managing, doing new things, making new accommodations and provisions, but in these days the Lord’s really, I feel like, called on me to stop and reflect on what sort of things he is showing and teaching us through that, what the nature and character of our relationships are, what community really means, especially when we can’t have it in the usual and conventional ways. Just preaching and studying in 1 Peter recently and thinking about Peter writing to these churches with whom he was not in community in a physical and proximate kind of way, and yet reminding them of who they are in Christ, who we are as the church, calling them to holy lives and to obedience in times of great suffering and trial. He didn’t just say, “Hang in there, this will pass. It’s going to get better.” Actually, it probably got worse after he wrote to them. But it is a reminder that I think we have opportunity to reflect and learn from this whole COVID experience of God’s grace and provision that transcends and helps us move through times like this and other challenging difficult times in our lives, personally, or as a community. And that’s a lot of what the Lord has really been impressing upon me of late. >>Doug Sweeney: Good word. Thank you for that, Dr. Fuller. Dr. Guthrie? >>Dr. Guthrie: Our pastor has been preaching a series on Jesus I Am statements. I’ve just been reading and reflecting on the various passages that come up in our worship times together recently. He was preaching from John 11, the death and resurrection of Lazarus, of course Jesus was saying to Martha that he’s the resurrection and the life. And that’s, oh boy, that’s quite a passage. (laughs) Does he know? Does he care? Can he do anything about anything? And so visceral and so present day ... those questions. Just what an assurance that the Lord is the resurrection and the life. Holding on to him as our risen jubilee is just such an encouragement. I’ve been so encouraged by the study we’ve been going through. I just feel like I’m meeting Jesus again in a fresh way, which has been very refreshing. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. Thank you. We do indeed have reason to hope. Listeners, you have been hearing from Dr. Tom Fuller, a man you know well, the Associate Dean of Beeson Divinity School, and Dr. Donald Guthrie, a good friend of mine, Executive Director of the Center for Transformational Churches at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Alumni, please come and hear more from him at our conference, November 4th-6th. Thank you very much, Donald and Tom, for spending some time with us. Thank you listeners for tuning in. We love you and we say “goodbye” for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.