Beeson Podcast, Episode 523 Dr. Mark Gignilliat, Dr. Carl Beckwith Nov. 17, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am Doug Sweeney here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. This week we’re continuing our three part series featuring Beeson faculty colleagues whose friendships with each other have enriched their teaching, writing, and service to the Church. We’re asking these pairs to tell us about their friendships and the ways in which their friendships enrich their lives personally and professionally. The faculty pair we’re with today have been friends for about 15 years. We’re looking forward to gaining an inside look into their friendship and the difference it’s made in their lives. So, Kristen, who are these faculty friends? >>Kristen Padilla: Welcome everyone to the podcast. We have on the show today Dr. Carl Beckwith. He is a professor of history and doctrine at Beeson. And we have his friend, Dr. Mark Gignilliat on the show who is professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Beeson. I’ve just personally been looking forward to this conversation. I started Beeson as a student when Dr. Gignilliat joined the faculty the same semester. I remember when Dr. Beckwith joined the faculty. It’s just been fun to watch their friendship over the years as an outsider. Pre COVID, for those of you listening, you could often find Dr. Beckwith and Dr. Gignilliat walking around campus; often after lunch in each other’s company. And sometimes if the weather was nice, throwing the baseball on the quad. We are so glad to have you on the show to talk about your friendship. Welcome, Dr. Beckwith and Dr. Gignilliat. >>Gignilliat: Hello. >>Beckwith: Thank you. >>Kristen Padilla: And we want to begin with just a simple question. How did you two become friends and what has kept you friends for all these years? >>Beckwith: We’ll find out what keeps us friends after this interview. >>Gignilliat: Yeah. I was going to say. I’m very surprised to find out that we are friends. I think this is a real discovery. It’s been 15 years. I was talking with the students about this podcast, just in the class beforehand. I think this is really going to define the relationship for the two of us in ways that we haven’t had done before. So, I’m grateful for the opportunity. I was a little confused about where we were, but I think things are becoming clearer now. So, I’m thankful for this. >>Beckwith: It’s taken 15 years, but you can see that Dr. Gignilliat is finally warming up to me. >>Gignilliat: (laughs) >>Beckwith: You know, I wonder if Mark ... Do you remember the first conversation that we had and when we did first meet? It was when I interviewed. It was breakfast. >>Gignilliat: Oh yeah. >>Beckwith: And I’d never met Dr. Gignilliat. I go down for my interview, for breakfast. Dr. Thielman happened to be there and I thought, “Well, this is kind of nice.” He brought his son along with him. Dr. Gignilliat was quite young when he joined the faculty. >>Gignilliat: I had more hair back then. >>Beckwith: We sit down for breakfast and, you know, anytime you go on a job interview you’re expecting questions that might warm you up a little bit to the school and to kind of get comfortable with one another. Almost out of the gate, here’s this young Presbyterian, Old Testament professor at the time, and he turns to me, as a Lutheran, and this may make sense to no one ... And he says, “Cark, what do you think about the [inaudible 00:03:41]?” Now, that’s a very obscure thing for most people. But what Mark was asking me was getting right to the heart of controversy between the Reformed and Lutherans on a very subtle Christological question in the Reformation. This is my first question from Dr. Gignilliat. I’m thinking, “Well, it’s great that we warmed up and got to know one another. Let’s talk about it.” >>Gignilliat: Yep. And now the difference in our friendship is 15 years later I can admit to Carl is I have no idea what that even is. So, that’s how things have developed over time. I remember, Carl, I think I was on the search committee for your position. And as some of the listeners may know, I have a deep interest in theological interpretation and the way in which that relates to the history of the tradition. I remember asking Carl questions about this in our interview. He just seemed to not really want to go after it. I remember hanging up, being so disappointed because I thought we were going to get a patristic scholar who’s going to have a deep interest in the exegesis of the fathers and the way in which they engaged the scriptures for the sake of constructive systematic theology. Carl would just not bite on it. I think part of that was because, if I remember correctly Carl, you were debating, thinking through what kind of evangelical institution is this? Are they going to be open to these ideas. So, you were being careful. I’ve since ... that’s part of the content of these walks around the quad is I just learn so much from what Carl brings to the table with his deep understanding of the tradition, especially the fathers and the way in which they read the Bible. >>Beckwith: Yes, I remember that question. (laughter) >>Gignilliat: You played, coy, I remember. >>Doug Sweeney: Do you want to defend yourself, Carl, before we move on? >>Beckwith: I mean, it is a hard question, as Mark says. I mean, when someone starts asking you about figural exegesis at an evangelical divinity school, you’re really not sure what’s behind a question like that. >>Gignilliat: That’s right. >>Doug Sweeney: Beyond debating the finer points of Christology, beyond throwing the baseball on the quad, what have you done together? Tell us just a little bit about your friendship over the years. The professional aspect of it. What kinds of conversations have you had over the years? What kinds of things have you done together that have been helpful to you? >>Gignilliat: I think part of the challenge that we all face at a divinity school like Beeson is so much of our social life and social context takes place in the sphere of our local church and parish. As I think it should be. I think being pulled in multiple directions for the sake of building theological community is a challenge and I think that’s what I’ve been probably most grateful for with Carl. We talk theology, we talk the life of the church, we have children that are similar age. We talk about these things. I probably wouldn’t make a big life decision without seeking Carl’s wisdom on some of these things. I think he brings a level of depth and understanding to sort of decision making and life that’s always very helpful. I think those are good. We also share an appreciation for baseball. Carl has had this for a long time. I think his passion for the Detroit Tigers, I’ll let him talk about that, is palpable. I can tell by Carl’s mood whether or not the Tigers won or lost the night before. I can say that. My discovery of baseball, again, has been with my children. So, that’s where it’s come. That’s been a fun thing. I think we’ve even snuck to a few baseball games here in town together. But most of our conversation and friendship centers around our work and our calling. >>Beckwith: Yeah, I think that you mentioned our walks around the quad and trying to encourage Mark to take an extra lap here or there. It’s good for him. (laughter) >>Gignilliat: That’s a low blow. >>Beckwith: When I think about our friendship it really is the simple things, right? Mark’s office is just down the hall from mine. Maybe it’s after class, a few minutes after class, maybe before Mark goes off to class, or at lunch time, or a walk around the quad, or a text or an email or something like that. In terms of the topics we talk about I think what defines friendship is that any topic is what you talk about. It is. We do talk a lot about theology and scriptural interpretation and I think we complement one another in those conversations. I’m rather exuberant, maybe, in some of my views of the Old Testament. And I think Mark really can help me think more critically about some of my proclivities when it comes to scriptural interpretation and so forth. But it’s not just that. Right? It’s life as a young professor. We both joined the faculty at an early stage of our academic career. We’ve gone through tenure and promotion together. We’ve been on a lot of committees. A lot of sort of the administrative curricular stuff that you do. Thinking what it means to be a young scholar that moves into sort of the middle stage of your career. Thinking long term, kind of where do we want to go together. And those have been incredibly valuable conversations that I’ve had with Mark. But as he says, right, we have children. We have families. And negotiating young families, the academy, life in the Church, all of that – those are issues as well that we discuss and of course we do have a love of sports, of baseball in particular. Mark will probably be a little too humble in this conversation, but Mark isn’t just a fan of baseball. Mark is an accomplished coach of baseball. A real student of the game. Here’s a secret. Maybe the students might listen to this at some point. If Mark is late to class and he’s not in his office, just go down to the Samford baseball field, Mark is probably down there scouting the Samford baseball team. >>Gignilliat: That is true. Oh yeah. I wondered, because I think the coach here, Coach Dun, at Samford wonders who this middle-aged professor is that sits in the stands. I’ll grade papers out there at the ball field here and just watch the young men take in-field. To me, there’s something aesthetic. Carl, did you ever read the piece by David Bentley Hart- >>Beckwith: Yep. >>Gignilliat: .... from First Things, arguing a kind of platonic argument for the priority of baseball? I think there’s something to that. Anyway, yeah. >>Kristen Padilla: You both mentioned your theological discussions. Can you share any specific ways in which what you have learned from one another out of these conversations and have brought that into your teaching, into your preaching, into just the way that you’re doing your own scholarship? >>Beckwith: Well, I think that just in the things that I do in the classroom and in my writing, I lean heavily on Mark and his understanding of the Old Testament, of scripture in general. Mark will tell you that I will just randomly send him texts or emails and ask him to look at a Hebrew text for me. This is what the fathers are saying, or this is what the Reformers are saying. Can we get the text to say something like that? I often make reference to Dr. Gignilliat in the classroom with students. Especially, again, if we’re thinking about the history of interpretation and the different ways in which we can see that throughout the history of the Church and sort of Dr. Gignilliat’s take on something like that. I find that incredibly valuable and really it’s a blessing of a place like Beeson that our faculty, we really have a small faculty and we know each other well. And our curriculum complements what we’re each doing and I’m really thankful for that. >>Gignilliat: I tell the students all the time that I think, for example, my relationship with Carl and other professors as well is Exhibit A of what makes Beeson such an interesting place. I did my own formal theological training at a Reformational seminary. So, I was trained in sort of classic continental and Scottish Presbyterian thought that was very much what shaped my understanding of the Church and formal Christian theology. We were also given a set of critical tools of how to deal with the detractors, like Lutherans, for example. >>Beckwith: The truth is a stubborn thing. >>Gignilliat: Exactly. So, we were taught sort of an approach to polemical theology in the face of various detractors. This is what I love about being at Beeson. I can’t talk about a Lutheran or someone who is in a different theological tradition as if they’re an abstract entity. I’ve got one down the hall. So, that’s one of the ways in which I’ve really learned so much from Carl about the way in which the Lutherans think about the sacraments. The way in which the Lutherans understand ecclesiology. Their Christology, which informs so much of their Eucharistic theology as well. So, I’ve become a student, I think, just by learning from Carl. Carl also ... and I think this is so enviable. I mean this sincerely. Carl has this sort of classic ... the best of a teacher’s mind and presentation in the way in which he thinks clearly and presents things. I tend to be like a fire hydrant. I don’t like that always. But I tend to be like a fire hydrant. Carl has got this very methodical, clear way of engaging an issue, pressing through the fluff, the rhetorical fluff to get to the substance of what’s really at play. He’s able to read text well and communicate text well on that level. I watch that all the time and learn from him. I absorb that in ways that Carl is not even conscious of. And just by way of my own academic and theological interests, I want to think about the ways in which the biblical text is related organically and fundamentally to its subject matter, namely God’s being revealed in Christ by the Spirit. Carl teaches history and doctrine from the standpoint of the Church’s engagement with the Bible. That’s what he’s after. And I’m after the same thing, because I want my engagement with the Bible to not be an end unto itself, but to be the way in which we encounter ... I’m stealing here from Catherine [inaudible 00:13:56] ... but the way in which we encounter the fiery presence of the living God. That’s the way in which the Church has engaged and loved it’s Bible and presented it to the Church. The tradition does that. So, I see what I’m doing in the classroom and what Carl is doing in the classroom, though we have different disciplines they’re so fundamentally related to one another that they can’t be torn apart. In ways that I’m conscious and unconscious of I’ve just benefitted from that relationship long term. >>Doug Sweeney: Kristen just asked you about the significance of your friendship for your professional lives, your teaching, your scholarship, your thinking. Can we ask you about the significance of your friendship for your personal lives? Your personal spiritual lives? How has being friends with each other made you more faithful followers of Jesus? We talk all the time at Beeson about the importance of community for theological formation, ministerial preparation, and I think that goes beyond the classroom and it goes beyond the student body. Can you testify to that? Is there any way, Mark, in which your relationship with Carl has actually made you a better Christian? >>Beckwith: He now knows what not to do. >>Gignilliat: Oh, Carl, have you made me a better Christian? I don’t know if that’s true or not. I’d have to think about this. Yeah, but not necessarily in a way of overly affected. I don’t think we’re using sort of affectacious or overly sentimental language about what that looks like. I think these things are probably caught more than they are because our Christian identity, our following of Jesus, is integral to who we are in every facet of our existence. So, these things are not torn apart. They’re just integrated into who we are. I don’t know that we have a strategy for how this works, but I think we’re definitely sort of shaping one another in ways that we’re conscious and unconscious of. I will say on a personal level there have been moments ... 15 years now, it’s a long time, right? There have been moments that I would see as key moments of difficulty or struggle that have occurred in that frame. I would just say Carl would be one of the first people that I would go to, to talk with about that and pray about that. But I think these things just happen in a much more natural way than an overly sort of methodological way with how that happens. >>Beckwith: Yeah, I think that’s right. One of the things that I’ve really benefitted from is when I came to Beeson I was not ordained. I became ordained in the Lutheran Church after I arrived at Beeson. Mark had tremendous experience in the Church, administratively and preaching and caring for others. I served a church in Birmingham as the sole pastor for a number of years. It doesn’t matter what church you serve, you’ll always have issues that arise. Mark was a great resource for me to not just think through to do that, but at least when I think of friendship, part of friendship is the ability to just sort of have a sounding board to talk to maybe hear some of the strange things that you say in the presence of another. That’s a very helpful thing. But really just to share and to talk about issues that I was thinking through ... difficulties, and getting Mark’s take on that. That’s been a huge benefit for me. I will say, one of my great joys ... I’ve said this to Mark, so he knows this. But like Mark said, 15 years is a long time. I’ve seen Mark grow- >>Gignilliat: Oh, now, that’s personal. (laughs) >>Beckwith: Physically and spiritually, I’ve seen Mark grow. But I’ve seen Mark grow as a teacher, as a scholar, as a writer. Mark takes very seriously his writing. He often makes fun of his writing, but he takes it very seriously and works at the craft of writing. But also as a preacher. And I’ve said this to Mark, I just think it’s remarkable Mark as a preacher. Mark has always been a good preacher. But I’ve seen over the years a growth, and I don’t know that I could really explain it or describe it. But I love listening to Mark Gignilliat preach in chapel. I think he should do it more often. I don’t know if he wants to do it more often, but it really is a special treat to those around him. Just the way that he sees scripture. I mean, he teaches Old Testament, but Mark doesn’t just teach Old Testament. Mark teaches New Testament and he knows the history of the Church so well. He knows the history of interpretation. He’s a Barth scholar. He knows the Reformation intimately. Mark is most often reading, it seems to me, works from the history of the Church. And making me buy these works and also have to read them and think through them. And I appreciate that. >>Gignilliat: Gosh, that’s really nice, Carl. I think this conversation is so fascinating because, and I joked about it at the beginning, but Carl and I are never going to give a meta analysis of our friendship in our talk with one another. This would never happen what we’re doing right now. It’s just not, I don’t think it’s in our DNA. But I think, for me, it’s just sort of fascinating to observe it. But secondly, one of the things, too, that I think I’ve grown and I’ve thought about this even this morning, deeper appreciation in observing Carl over these years is the beauty of simple faithfulness. It’s not showy, it’s not necessarily flashy, but there is a deep and sincere faithfulness to Christ and his Church. I mean, Carl has served local congregations now for more years than he hasn’t in Birmingham. That happened very quickly right after his ordination. Carl is preaching regularly. He’s involved in the life of the Church. Carl is not going to blog about that. He’s not going to tweet about it. But he’s very involved in the pastoral life of local congregations. And he’s faithful. The other thing, too, I’d say about Carl and his work and I love this. I mean, you get these random texts from Carl, like he mentioned already, about some sort of small facet or narrow facet of exegesis here or there in the Bible. Carl is doing his work all the time. I mean, there is a faithfulness and a stability to his work where he’s giving himself to the subject matter again and again. I was just in the class talking with the students about Karl Barth actually. And saying one of the most beautiful things about a curious theological mind that still has this sense of wonder about what they’re doing because they haven’t turned their task into a [inaudible 00:20:40] industry of their own self and their own scholarly identity. Instead, their activity and their service and their scholarship is still in service of the curiosity and wonder of the thing, of the subject matter, of God’s being revealed in Jesus. That kind of energy, that kind of long term faithfulness I think is something that lies on the sidelines of my friendship with Carl. I see that in him. And it really prods me on to my own work. >>Kristen Padilla: We’re so grateful that we have forced you to talk about your friendship on the podcast. (laughter) When I mentioned the series to students they all said, “You have to have Dr. Beckwith and Dr. Gignilliat on the show,” because your friendship is so evident to them. And so I wanted to ask as we think about friendship for the Church and for Christians, whether they’re professors or in ministry or lay people. Why is it important to develop these type of friendships? What word of exhortation would you give to our listeners today about what it takes to be a good friend and the value of friendship? >>Beckwith: I think friendship, at the heart of it ... I guess for me when I think of friendship I mostly think of my wife. And I think of the intimate sharing between a husband and a wife. The giving of the self to the other. The ability to talk without hesitation, to make yourself vulnerable in every way. For me, that is friendship kind of at its purest, right? That there’s always the other that you can fully and completely rely upon. Now, I’m a Midwesterner. These friendships don’t come easily for me. It takes a lot for me to do that with another. And in some sense I’m probably even in my friendships beyond my wife somewhat guarded. That’s probably just a personality thing. But I think friendships are important for that very purpose. It is about loving the other in Christ, recognizing the tremendous blessings that God surrounds us with the people he puts near us – our neighbor. Right? Among those neighbors you will always develop a relationship, a closer relationship with some, where you can confide. You can share. You can question. You can doubt. You can pray and you can encourage one another. And I think that those really are at the heart of the Church in different ways. I think of one of the most important aspects of the Church is that we give ourselves over to pastoral care, to the care of another. And to do that requires you to be genuine with another. It requires a certain amount of humility and vulnerability that you give yourself to the care of the Church for your own spiritual benefit. I think a lot of the questions you’ve actually asked, in some sense, touch on all of that. There is something that is very rewarding about friendship at a spiritual level. That there is the encouragement. Especially at a place like Beeson. I mean, this is a community of faithful believers seeking to serve the Lord. Seeking to prepare our students for service in the Church. The faculty at Beeson ... I think it’s one of the most wonderful things that we do – we care so deeply about that. We strive hard to do that well. Part of the striving hard at doing that well is that we really are all friends. In different ways, but we really are friends with one another, encouraging one another to go about this work that we have together. >>Gignilliat: Yeah, I think we have different capacities for ... Well, an analogy I speak with the students about, what we might call cognitive load especially in language learning, that there’s a certain kind of cognitive load that’s met subjectively with each individual. That once that load is met learning stops. There is no more learning that is going to take place now. I think that’s a subjective thing. It’s also related to the way in which people can absorb and carry on multiple friendships. It’s going to be different from one person to another. I think as I’ve gotten older I’ve recognized and feel more settled and free with the recognition that we do have friendships that are just for a season. I used to get kind of troubled by that. There was someone in my early 20’s I was very, very close with and now we’re not close anymore. Something seems to have gone amiss with that. Sometimes there are just friendships that are for a season. They’re the good gift of God in that moment. But that, I think, makes friendships that transcend seasonal moments all the more special, and gifts that God gives us. That doesn’t happen with everyone. You can’t force it to happen. But something that I think happens naturally in the providence and the kindness of God in relating to others. When it comes I think that’s one of those good gifts that we give thanks to God for, because it’s an antidote to our loneliness. It’s a gift in our pilgrim journey to not be alone. You think about the pilgrim in Pilgrim’s Progress, Christian, the companions that he needed along the way to help him get to the celestial city. We need it. We need companions. We need friends. We need people that we can be vulnerable with that we can be honest with. And people who really know us and in knowing us we recognize that we’re not fearful about them seeing the real us. That’s I think part of the challenge. We’ve become masters, I think, especially in our moment of creating a social self that’s platformed in whatever way. It’s such a blessing to be able to put your hair down and say, “I’m free here. This is genuine freedom. I can be who I am because of what God has given us in Christ.” >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. Those are very wise words. I’m very glad that we have had this opportunity to define the relationship between Dr. Gignilliat and Dr. Beckwith. >>Gignilliat: Carl and I are not going to be able to look each other in the eye for like a month now. This is going to be very awkward when I see him tomorrow. >>Doug Sweeney: Kristen, I don’t know if we should offer a gender analysis of this or not while we’re recording the podcast, but a couple of guys are having a hard time figuring out how to relate to one another. The rest of us, from afar, look at their friendship, though, and we thank God for it. A lot of wisdom has emerged from it, even in this podcast conversation. Listeners, Christian ministry can be isolating if we’re not careful about it. COVID19 can be isolating if we’re not careful about it. So, let’s be careful about it. Let’s learn from Mark Gignilliat, Carl Beckwith, and the other Beeson faculty friends we’ve been listening to on this series – thanking God for the gift of friendship and going out of our way to cultivate friendships with one another. We are glad that you are here listening to us and befriending us, even if only virtually. Please continue to pray for us here at Beeson, as we try to serve the Lord faithfully in this difficult season. We’re glad to offer this podcast to you. Thank you very much Dr. Gignilliat and Dr. Beckwith for being with us. And goodbye everyone, for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.