Beeson Podcast, Episode #522 Dr. Frank Thielman, Dr. Paul House Nov. 10, 2020 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, I am Doug Sweeney here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. This week we begin a new three part series featuring Beeson faculty colleagues whose friendships with each other have enriched their teaching and writing across disciplinary lines. We’ll be asking these pairs about their friendships and the ways in which their friendships enrich their lives personally and professionally. The faculty pair we’re with today have been friends for almost 20 years. They’ve often been found, in each other’s offices or even in the hallways here, discussing scripture and theology. We’re looking forward to giving you an inside look into their friendship and some of those conversations. Kristen, would you please introduce today’s guests and get our conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you, Doug, and welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am excited about today’s show. I’m excited to introduce our guest. We have Dr. Paul House and Dr. Frank Thielman on the show. Dr. Paul House is a professor of divinity at Beeson where he teaches Old Testament. He is the author of many well known textbooks and commentaries, including Old Testament survey and Old Testament theology, and commentaries on the Books of Isaiah, Daniel, and 1 & 2 Kings. Dr. Frank Thielman is also a professor of divinity at Beeson where he teaches New Testament. Dr. Thielman is one of our longest standing faculty members, having joined in 1989. And like Dr. House he too is the author of many well known textbooks and commentaries, including Theology of the New Testament, Romans, Ephesians, and Philippians. Both Dr. House and Dr. Thielman serve together on the oversight committee of the English Standard Version, which they may discuss today on the show. So, welcome to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Thielman: Thanks, Kristen. >>Dr. House: Thank you very much, we’re happy to be here. >>Dr. Thielman: Good to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: We want to begin by asking a very simple, but important question. How did you become friends? Dr. House, why don’t we start with you? >>Dr. House: I think Frank and I agree that this began ... I looked this date up, Frank, I don’t have total recall. April 24th to 27th, 2003. Frank came and stayed at our home in Wheaton and we were all together with other Old Testament theologians to give papers to one another and work on a project that was published later. But Frank stayed in our ... it was cold that week, as I recall, Frank – he stayed in our basement bedroom and it seems like you liked our coffee. Didn’t you, Frank? That was the first step to friendship. >>Dr. Thielman: I knew Paul and I were going to be friends when Paul and Heather served me this amazing cup of coffee. They had this machine that ground the coffee beans and then brewed the coffee. I just thought that was the most amazing machine I had ever seen. Wow, what a cup of coffee. I still remember it. I knew we were going to be fast friends after that. That’s really one of the things I appreciate most about Paul is he is so hospitable. Not just to me, but to lots of people. I mean, often I’ll be talking to Paul and he’ll just ... it’ll turn out somebody is staying in their home that they’ve invited to be there. He and Heather just have this very open home and he’s just a very hospitable person. So, he’s an easy person to be friends with. >>Doug Sweeney: Tell us a little bit, guys, about some of the projects that you’ve worked on together? And maybe even say a word about how your partnership in those projects has made the projects better than they would have been otherwise. Frank, would you mind going first on this one? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, I think that first project that Paul mentioned where we really became friends ... I mean, I had known about Paul’s work before that time, and really appreciated his Old Testament theology, but this was a collaboration on a little volume called, “Central Themes in Biblical Theology.” A group of us met together, under the leadership of Paul in the Old Testament and Scott [Hafemon 00:04:50] in the New Testament. Scott and Paul had been friends for decades. So, we met together with a group of people and read essays by each other and had a wonderful time of discussion. I remember that as a very enjoyable and collegial opportunity for engagement. That was at Wheaton College. So, we collaborated together on that. That became a book, and I really enjoyed that collaboration. I learned a lot from it. I think my essay was on the atonement and I really enjoyed putting that together. Probably Paul and I have collaborated most on things having to do with English Standard Version. We’re both on the translation oversight committee. Paul is really the moderator of that committee when it meets. So, we’ve collaborated on that work for a number of years now. That’s something Paul really invited me to do. I have thoroughly enjoyed collaborating with him and the others on that committee. It’s been a very edifying and wonderful experience. We’ve collaborated on the ESV Concise Study Bible that Paul is working on right now as well. There are probably other things that I’m just not remembering right now, Paul. Can you remember some ... >>Dr. House: No, I think that’s close to it. I just reflect when we first met, that group met out of friendship, Scott Hafeman and I have been friends a long time. We wanted to actually have a personal time of scholarship with other scholars. So, Frank will probably help me remember these, but in the Old Testament, Elmer Martin is an outstanding Mennonite Old Testament theologian, Steve [Demster 00:06:41] a Baptist Unity of the Bible person. I’m trying to think, we had Roy Ciampa was in that volume, wasn’t he? The point was, we met, ate with one another, talked with one another, read papers. We met once in Wheaton and once in Birmingham. So, we gathered around the table. Some of the best scholarly endeavors I’ve ever had. Which are just around friendship and Frank was one of those friends. By the time we’d met in Birmingham his most important collaboration was in helping me come to Beeson. So, we’re grateful for that. We have learned a lot on the ESV and I think a lot of our collaboration probably won’t show up because it came in conversations in the offices. So, I note Frank’s influence on some of those things. For instance, my Isaiah commentary – we talked over several times of the passages in Paul where he cites Isaiah. I’m not sure how that shows up in the box score, but that’s been part of the collaboration. >>Dr. Thielman: Absolutely. Invaluable, actually, to me. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, that’s a nice segue into my question. My office, for you listeners, is right across the hall from Dr. House’s and prior to COVID I would hear Dr. Thielman in Dr. House’s office. Now, I don’t know what they were talking about, but I know that they were talking about scripture, most likely, and learning from one another as you’ve already mentioned, Dr. House. So, can each of you reflect for a moment on something you have learned from each other about scripture? And how has the other’s scholarship impacted and strengthened your own scholarship? Dr. House, why don’t we start with you? >>Dr. House: Yeah, I’ll give one concrete example. A lot of times it’s general. So, I’ll go into Frank’s office and say, “If I understand Isaiah right, I think this is what Paul is doing with it.” And Frank will tell me if that’s a crazy notion. He’ll often get out a Greek text and just walk through it. But a concrete example, I think it was when I was writing the book on Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Frank and I were talking about how some people used the epistles as evidence for distance learning. And you said, “I don’t think those people know how epistles were written and read and sent.” He said, “You know? They would send this by trusted people who would be there when they opened it up and when they read it and who could answer any questions.” I said, “Well, what’s your resource for that?” And Frank eventually found on his shelf the book, I forget the author now, Frank, once I quote something I know where to find it, but I don’t remember ... But anyway, that went straight into the work and in a couple of other articles that I worked on – this whole issue of how ... Frank is very good with the historical nature of things as real history and real language. Not just somebody’s reconstructed history. So, he got that book down and he helped me. That’s been, that’s stuck with me. That’s a concrete example. >>Dr. Thielman: Well, thanks Paul. That’s really kind of you to say that. I’m so glad that was helpful. I can think of so many times when Paul’s insight into the Old Testament, generally, and especially into Isaiah, have been helpful to me in my own work on Romans and working on a Romans commentary, but also just in teaching. I’ve learned so much about Isaiah from Paul over the years. I remember when he first came to Beeson, 13, 14, 15 years ago? Paul? >>Dr. House: Whatever 2004 was. >>Dr. Thielman: 2016. Maybe 16 years ago, but I can remember when Paul first came as Associate Dean. He was working on that commentary, I believe. Weren’t you working on it from ... >>Dr. House: Well, if you’re going to tell the world how long it took me to do that, go ahead, but yeah, that’s right. No money changed hands so it went on slowly, yeah. >>Dr. Thielman: (laughs) It is really a good work, because Paul just soaked in it for years. And he would come down the hall to my office frequently and talk with me about where he was in the commentary and what he was working on. And I just feel like I got this education in Isaiah over the course of many years. It has been so helpful. When the commentary actually came out, this wonderful two volume commentary, I immediately got it. I just have grown in my appreciation of Isaiah and what a wonderful book it is. Of course, it was really important to Paul. Paul quotes Isaiah, next to the Psalms, he quotes Isaiah more than any other Old Testament book, and Paul was steeped in its theology, Paul the Apostle. (laughs) So, it was so fun to learn about Isaiah from Paul House, my friend, and then eventually to have this wonderful two volume commentary, which I used extensively in a little book that I wrote about a year and a half ago that’s coming out in January. I mean, I just was sitting there with Paul’s commentary at my side as I was writing this little book on the new creation. It was so helpful. Paul is footnoted over and over again there. Part of that’s the commentary, part of that is just learning about Isaiah from Paul, because Paul is just a master teacher. He teaches so well. His students really learn well from him. But Paul also has this gift of teaching teachers how to teach. And so when he was an Associate Dean here at Beeson he taught a lot of us how we could teach better. And that was such a gift. He just loves to teach. He loves the discipline of teaching. And he’s taught me how to teach so much better. I’m such a better teacher because of Paul’s tutelage in that regard. Particularly with regard to grading papers. Paul taught me how to grade (laughs) papers. >>Doug Sweeney: What did he teach you? >>Dr. Thielman: Well, he taught me that I needed to grade them, for one thing. (laughs) >>Doug Sweeney: That’s good. >>Dr. Thielman: He taught me I really needed to assign lots of writing to students and go through the real discipline of reading their writing carefully and making comments and helping them to be better writers. Because if they’re better writers they’re better thinkers. And they engage and interact with the material better. I mean, I learned that from Paul. Paul has taught that to a number of other people, too. >>Dr. House: Well, both of us have English Lit backgrounds and writing backgrounds that I think feed into that. I appreciate what Frank said. I wanted to add one other thing and that’s simply that toward the end of the Isaiah writing Frank was working on Romans while I was working on Isaiah. And in part it just helped to know that he was down there working. Part of it was by example and we’re engaged in the same kind of effort. Both of us knowing that if anything is worth writing about Romans and Isaiah they are. And so part of it was just knowing that we were both working on something meaningful at the same time was helpful. >>Doug Sweeney: We wanted to ask you about your ministry to students and whether your friendship has made a difference in the way you teach. Obviously Frank has already spoken to that a little bit. So, maybe we should ask Paul about this. But real honestly, Paul, has Frank taught you anything about teaching? Or has your friendship affected the way you serve students in the classroom? I can say, from lots of conversations I’ve had with students here at Beeson, even in just the year and a half since I moved here, the two of you are clearly two of their favorite professors in the whole divinity school. Does the friendship help? Has there been some cross pollination that you’d say honestly affected what you do in the classroom? Again, Frank has touched on this already so maybe Paul, do you want to say anything about that? >>Dr. House: Well, I don’t know. I think Frank and I have similar respect for students. By that I mean we respect them enough to think they can and should do good work. One of the things I’ve learned from Frank is he always has in mind this model that he wants the students to reach. That model really is his dad, Calvin Thielman, who is one of the reasons that Frank has been to [inaudible 00:15:38], all these famous meetings, because his dad was Billy Graham’s family pastor. And Calvin Thielman knew, not just the Grahams but Lynden Johnson, all sorts of things. Since it’s election day we can say that. But Frank remembers him, not for [inaudible 00:15:51] and not just for being his dad, but for being a faithful reader of the Greek New Testament day by day by day, and a careful expository preacher day in and day out. One of the things that Frank has helped me is to say, “What would be your end goal? What are you trying to do with these people? What do you foresee?” So, that was helpful. Frank is also more patient than I am. Quite a bit more patient. He comes across earnest, because he is. Honest, because he is. And I think that’s helped me to be patient with students. But you don’t want to mistake Frank’s patience for not having a high standard. And I think the students figure that out. So, yes, I think I’ve learned more about a model and a goal and treating people as kindly as you can. >>Dr. Thielman: Well, I just learn so much from Paul. Just Paul’s example of being a good friend and being hospitable to students. Paul genuinely likes his students. That’s just such a good example. We need to care for our students as people. I think Paul really does that, and I think he’s taught me to value that. One thing, just in terms of subject matter and the emphases that we had in our teaching, is that Paul has really taught me the importance when teaching scripture of being sure that our students understand the importance of expository preaching. Both defining it carefully as the clear explanation of the biblical text and the way the author is presenting it. And then urging our students to preach in that way. I really learned that from Paul. I mean, Paul came here with those convictions. I sort of had inherited that from my father and kind of had an idea that that’s what students ought to do when Paul came, but when Paul came to Beeson the light bulb really went on for me, that I just really needed to methodologically double down on what it means to preach expositorally. And help my students learn what it means to move from the biblical text in the original language to a clear sermon on that text. And I guess really credit Paul with that and I appreciate it very much. It’s been helpful in my own life and in my own preaching. I hope that’s been communicated to students as well. Thanks, Paul (laughs), for doing that. >>Kristen Padilla: Thank you both. You know, at Beeson we emphasize the importance of community as part of that theological formation. And it’s not just something that we want our students to practice, but it is something that’s important among our faculty as well. And so can you share some examples about how your friendship has gone beyond the walls of Beeson? Perhaps you can share ways that each other has ministered to you personally. You can get as personal as you want to here, but we would love to just hear about how your friendship has gone beyond the teaching, the writing, in the office conversations, and really beyond that to having a personal relationship. Dr. Thielman, do you want to begin this time? >>Dr. Thielman: Yes. I appreciate your asking that question. Paul is a really good friend in the sense that he’ll do anything for you. If he’s your friend he’s going to take good care of you and make sure you’re taken care of. I learned that early on about Paul. That our friendship was one that if I had car trouble he was willing to come and help me out, and make sure I got my car fixed. So, I think I’ve learned a lot about what it means to be a good friend from Paul. He is just that kind of person. But we’ve done all kinds of things together. We’ve had meals together. My wife Abby and his wife, Heather, like one another and are both very hospitable people. So, that’s been fun. All four of us have gotten together. We’ve shared some really memorable experiences, especially on the translation oversight committee, which has met twice in Cambridge, England. So, those are just wonderful memories of being together in Cambridge. A lot of our memories together, and I’m so eager to get back to this once COVID is done, Paul, is just having meals together (laughs) in each other’s homes, but sometimes in a local restaurant. Just meeting. I remember one time in particular, we were eating at a local restaurant and Grant Taylor, our Associate Dean, and his wife came by and just kind of sat down with us and we just had the best time, just talking about all kinds of things. So, yeah, I have lots of wonderful, outside of the walls of Beeson memories with Paul and Heather. Including when Paul spent the night at our house during the snow apocalypse of whenever that was. Several years ago. (laughs) And Abby was stranded somewhere and Paul couldn’t get home. We walked from Beeson to our home in Homewood, and sat here and watched the news, and watched the apocalypse unfold. Then all spent the night here. >>Dr. House: I think I spent two nights. I appreciate it very much. And our job as older members of the faculty are to tell embarrassing stories. It started snowing. Timothy George was at some sort of convocation and he says, “Well, we’re about to go into convocation. Probably when we come out everything will be cancelled, but we’re going to go ahead anyway.” And he was correct. We got out and everything was cancelled. I called three motels, couldn’t get anything. I knew I wasn’t getting home. Heather was already stranded near Allen and Jan Ross’s home. Jan took Heather in for the night. It was really Frank who said, “Do you want to come home with us?” I said, “Yep. I quit.” We walked home. My main job was to keep Frank from ... because Abby was stuck on 280 trying to get her daughter home from Briarwood School. And they were going up and down 280 filling up with gas when they were running out and trying to get up ... and Frank says, “Well, I’m ...” He got his shoes. He was going to go march out there. I said, “Frank, what are you going to do if you get there?” (laughs) So, my main job is to keep Frank from marching out and freezing to death during the snow. But yeah, we just sat there and waited until Frank was liberated when one of our students with a four wheel drive came and took me away. >>Dr. Thielman: Yeah, I remember it well. I cannot remember what we had for dinner that night. I hate to think of what it was I must have pulled out of the refrigerator. But it wasn’t nearly as good as anything Abby or Heather would have cooked. >>Dr. House: Well, I think that’s right. I also remember a time we prayed together. When I first came to Beeson we prayed together and we’ve prayed for our children together. I think at the time there was an emphasis on faculty and staff getting together to pray. It was one of the most momentous times when Ken Matthews, Frank, and I prayed and we asked Frank what his prayer requests were and he was just worried he wasn’t a good father. Ken Matthews just snorted and said, “Oh, Frank. Do your kids speak to you?” He said, “Yes.” “Then you’re a good parent.” (laughs) Yeah, Ken wasn’t even going to pray for Frank to be a better parent. He just thought that was nonsense that Frank was worried about it. But I think it’s that kind of thing. You pray for one another. You care about one another. And it is nice to know the spouses. I know that isn’t always possible. But part of it is just, again, we actually spend some time at work, which is a chance to see each other. >>Dr. Thielman: Yes, that’s good. Paul, I would just want to say how much I appreciate your friendship. COVID has kept us from having our frequent office space visits and that’s one of the things I miss most. And I’m looking forward to the time when we’ll renew those. >>Dr. House: It’s a real loss, because Abby, Frank’s wife, she’s at risk because of respiratory things. Then as it turns out, Heather has had to spend about 100 days this year helping her mother who has bone marrow cancer, so she’s ... we’ve heard of second degree separation in theological ... we have it for COVID. So, no, we’ve had to be ultra careful. And it is a loss. I don’t see any reason not to say that. Not being able to be together is a loss. >>Doug Sweeney: Part of what we want to do with this little series is emphasize the importance of friendship to people who are in ministry. We’re thinking not just about professors but about pastors maybe especially as well. I think we have more pastors who listen to our podcast than we have professors. Do either one of you want to speak to that a little bit? I mean, being a professor can be a lonely job if you let it. It can be isolating. You’re somebody who is preparing to teach or preach or you’re writing books quite a bit. A lot of that is done by oneself in the study. And being a pastor can be a lonely job as well. Paul, Frank, would you like to say anything to those who are listening, just from your experience as friends about the importance of friendship? >>Dr. House: Well, I would. Several years ago, I think Beeson did a piece of it, I did a talk and an article called Investing In The Ruins, which was about Jeremiah and [Baruch’s 00:26:33] friendship. I can honestly say that when I went to seminary, for all of you who are at that stage, some of you heard me say this – what did I get most from my seminary? And this was not knocking anything. Hebrew and lifelong friends were the two things that come to mind. People who I haven’t talked to this week but have been my friends for 40 years now. The kind of people who care about you. I kind of stumbled in on that so I tell people to do this on purpose. The mentoring groups I had, for instance, I think it’s more important that they get to know one another than to get to know me, because I now have more years behind me than I have ahead of me. Some of them could last 60 years if you’ll be friends. You’re going to need that. I would say to pastors, don’t fall into the trap of being a lone wolf. You’re going to need people. Don’t let those friends get away. Once I understood that once you have good friends you need to maintain that friendship. We have more ways and cheaper ways to stay in touch today than we’ve ever had. So, to that extent I’m appreciative of the technology available to us. The time will come when we will not be able to make new friends as fast as our old friends are dying. So, I would encourage you to be a good friend and to focus ... scholarship, a lot of it has to be done alone and in the quiet. Same thing with pastoral work. So, all the more to have people interceding and encouraging you. Sometimes it’s just getting a good phone call or just a short message of encouragement. But a lot of times it’s hearing the other person out. >>Dr. Thielman: I think those are really wise words and I just agree with all of them. It’s so important to have good friends that will hold us accountable to our commitment to the Lord and are honest with us and help us in an encouraging way to stay faithful. I think about the Apostle Paul and the number of co-workers he had: Timothy and Priscilla and Aquila. Philippians 4 [inaudible 00:28:53], two women that he says, “They have striven together with me in the gospel.” And he just had all of these friends that held him accountable and helped him. If the Apostle Paul needed that surely we do. So, I think Paul is exactly right. The developing of friendships in seminary and further on into ministry are just really, really ... these friendships are very important. They’re really important for any Christian. Any believer, lay or clergy. We all need good Christian friends that know us well and edify us and help us to grow in the faith. Paul has certainly done that for me. Heather, too. >>Dr. House: My friend, Jay [Kestler 00:29:45] who is the president of Taylor University, said he’d spent his whole life trying to make six friends to hold the handle of his coffin and not look at their watches during his funeral. So, I think Frank might be one of those people if he loses his watch, but I think it’s good to have those kinds of friends. >>Dr. Thielman: Well, Paul, I hope I’ll go before you do. But if that’s not the case that’s the kind of friend I want to be to you. I appreciate your friendship very much. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, thank you, Frank and Paul, very much for being here with us today. I’m so glad that you two have developed such a close friendship and that your friendship has made such a positive difference, not just in your own lives, but in the lives of so many other people, so many of our students here at Beeson Divinity School. You have been listening to Paul House, Professor of Divinity, teacher of Old Testament here at Beeson, and Dr. Frank Thielman, Professor of Divinity, teacher of New Testament here at Beeson Divinity School. We are very grateful to them for helping us start this series on the importance of friendship in life and ministry. And we’re grateful to all of you, friends, who are listening to us. We love you. We thank you for your prayers. Please keep praying for Beeson Divinity School and all the friendships our students are making here even this semester. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.