Beeson Podcast, Episode #
Patricia Outlaw, Calvin Bell, Mary Moss, Thomas Beavers
July 14, 2020

>>Announcer: 


Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. 


>>Doug Sweeney:


Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla, and today’s episode is the second in a three week series of interviews with four African American alumni about their experience with racism and struggle for racial justice in life and ministry.

We hope you were able to listen to last week’s episode in which these friends share their stories of growing up with racial injustice. In today’s conversation we’ll focus on the experience of racial prejudice in our guest’s adult lives – and in the wake of the recent killings of Ahmaud Arbery, Brianna Taylor, George Floyd, and many others. 

We know that for some of you this episode will be difficult to hear. The experiences we’ll talk about are painful and dispiriting. But we need to listen and learn as we do our very best to combat the sins of racism and work at reconciliation in our churches and in our world.

Kristen, will you please introduce today’s guests?


>>Kristen Padilla:


Welcome back to this special series on the Beeson Podcast. Last week I had the privilege of introducing each of our four panelists, and I encourage you to go back to that episode and learn more about each of them. Today I want to remind you who we have on the show. We have four outstanding Beeson alumni. All who serve as pastors. 

Our first guest is the Reverend Dr. Patricia Outlaw, who is the pastor of Oak Grove AME Church in Florence, Alabama. She graduated from our DMin program in 2002 and taught as an associate professor of divinity at Beeson from 2001 to 2015. 

Our second guest is the Reverend Dr. Mary Moss, who is the senior pastor of St. Alma Baptist Church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. She also earned her Doctor of Ministry degree from Beeson in 2009. 

Our third guest is the Reverend Dr. Thomas Beavers, who is the senior pastor of New Rising Star Missionary Baptist Church in the East Lake Community in Birmingham, Alabama. He graduated from Beeson with an MDiv degree and later a DMin degree in 2007 and 2013 respectively. 

And our last guest is the Reverend Dr. Calvin Bell, who is the senior pastor of Bethel Baptist Church in Bessemer, Alabama. He earned his MDiv and DMin degrees from Beeson in 2011 and 2017 respectively. 

Welcome back, everyone, to the Beeson Podcast. 

We ended the last podcast talking about your childhood, particularly about what your loved ones and elders taught you about racism. As well as how racism affected your childhood. So, on this episode we want to move into talking about racism as it has affected you as adults. How have racial insensitivity, racism, racial injustice affected you as adults? How do you respond when you encounter racism in others? And another question that comes to mind is now that you are adults, what are you teaching the younger generations about racism and how to confront racism as children?

Dr. Outlaw, let’s start with you.


>>Dr. Outlaw:


I am the oldest adult in the room. (laughs) So, I’ve been an adult a long time. I remember, as I graduated from high school in 1963 we were part of a social justice movement in the Catholic church. I remember a group of us going to Washington D.C. to participate in the march on Washington in 1963 that Martin Luther King gave his historic “I have a dream,” speech. So, I have been accustomed to participating in marches in order to desegregate places like Glen Oak Park in Baltimore City that was segregated.

Then I did a tour for five years in a convent. It was a 99% African American group of women living together under the banner of the [inaudible 00:04:41] Sisters of Providence. One of the reasons that I didn’t go to an integrated order is there was discrimination in the church. Even with respect to trying to get into a religious community there was discrimination. There was separation between the Black Catholic church, the “White” Catholic church ... needless to say there’s always been this segregation that was always in the backdrop and in the forefront. 

I had a progressive mother who would remind me that the way out of some of the predicaments that we found ourselves in was education. So, she was intent on my getting a quality education and getting out of Sandtown. As I grew older I would participate in marches and go to conferences and advocate on behalf of my people, and learn my history – knowing that we were brought here, my ancestors were brought here against our will – and even sometimes making people uncomfortable with some of the statements.

But the fact of the matter is the constitution was never written with Black people in mind. It was written with White males in mind. And so we had no freedoms. We were brought here as slaves. When I was able to get my own drivers license and get what I call my vanity tag I got the tag number “Outlaw3.” Because my father’s last name, even though it’s a slave master’s last name, was “Outlaw.” I had a cousin who is sort of the genealogist in the family inform me that my grandfather, Joseph Outlaw, was the first generation out from slavery. He married Eliza McCoy. Eliza McCoy had inherited some land. So, that land became part of the Outlaw family.

So, when I had the opportunity to get a license tag I got “Outlaw3” because that signaled that I was third generation out from slavery. On one job I had in Baltimore City I remember a supervisor saying to me in the cafeteria how was it that I could afford to drive the kind of car I was driving. Well, a full time job and a part time job, because I always saw that as an opportunity, in my family, on the Outlaw side – we were encouraged to buy real estate and to invest. So, I could well afford the car that I was driving, but the assumption was that because I was driving a nice, fine car that I had to be doing something illegal in order to be able to afford the kind of car I was driving.

So, I always found myself overachieving relative to some of my peers. When I was working on my doctorate at the University of Maryland I had peers who would say to me they wished that they had the same kind of energy that I had. But I was determined I was going to excel and I wasn’t going to go to jail. Because a lot of people in my community, a lot of my peers were disappearing. They were going to jail for a little of nothing. I knew that if I didn’t move in a different direction I could also end up in the same predicament. 

I had one encounter when I was in elementary school, because I was big for my age. I went down to the juvenile [master 00:07:38] was presented there for fighting and he said if I came down there again they would have to send me away somewhere. Well, I made a commitment to myself that I wasn’t going back down there again, because I didn’t want to have to deal with being incarcerated somewhere.


>>Kristen Padilla:


How do you respond when you encounter racism today?


>>Dr. Outlaw:


I call a spade a spade. I try to be polite, but I acknowledge the racism in the room. I try to encourage people to know their history and to acknowledge the fact that racism still exists. That the constitution was never written with us in mind, it was only written with White males in mind. It wasn’t even written with White women in mind. My ancestors were slaves when the constitution was written. My ancestors were not free, even when the Star Spangled Banner was written. It was not written with us in mind. It was written with White males in mind. 

If you know the history of the Star Spangled Banner and look at the lyrics you will discover that we were not included. In the junior high school that I went to, I didn’t know [inaudible 00:08:37] went there, but I was sent there because it was an accelerated junior high school, and my junior high was named Robert E. Lee junior high school. 

Coming south I had my reservations about coming to Alabama. And I said to a classmate when I was in the DMin program ... he wanted me to come ... I was the only female with nine other men, White men, and one guy from India. And my classmate wanted me to come home and meet his family. And as we were driving on 65 South going through these back roads to get to his house to meet his family I said, are you sure it’s okay for me to be riding through these roads with you? I was very much aware of where I was, who I was with. I was with a White male who happened to be a Baptist brother. And I’m going down these roads in Alabama. You know? The same place where they bombed 16th Street Baptist Church in my lifetime. 

So, I have all those kinds of reservations that I have to deal with. And even to this day it’s still real.


>>Kristen Padilla:


How do you address racism with your students?


>>Dr. Outlaw:


I told my students the first year I started teaching here, which I’ve taught in other places, I said if this school wanted another White person, White male teacher they would have hired that person. So, don’t expect me to walk like, talk like, act like someone else. Because I’m not. I’m not coming from the same tradition. I have a different history. I’m real clear. I try to be nice, but I’m not into people pleasing.


>>Kristin Padilla:


Thank you, Dr. Outlaw. Dr. Bell? What has been your experience as an adult?


>>Dr. Bell:


So, as I think about how racism has affected me as an adult I think about several stories. Rewind to 1998 I was working at Kirkland Clinic at UAB and I was actually the first African American maintenance mechanic to work in Kirkland Clinic and I remember I started working down there with all White men who were on the maintenance, and of course the White lady who was in the office. I just remember how there was a tone of the N-word being used frequently, but now that I was down there when they were in the shop they could say it when they’re the only ones down there, they were getting ready to say the word and have to remember, oh, we have a Black guy here with us now, so we can’t use that word. So, I can’t tell you the number of times they were about to say the N-word and then they had to remember, oh, we have a Black guy in here. This was 1998.

So, eventually that kind of waned out and several [inaudible 00:10:58] worked with me and didn’t have to deal with that much anymore. However, I noticed that when we had work orders for the various clinics in Kirkland, I noticed that the boss oftentimes would ... if we had work orders ... there were Black managers and White managers in the facility. I noticed that bosses were giving priority to the White managers to get the work orders out. So, I was taught when they were training me, okay, just take care of the priority work orders, [if there’s some that’s higher 00:11:25], surgery or whatever the case may be, make sure you go ahead and get those out. But if there’s not a dire need then what you do is you just take the work orders as they came in.

And so I noticed that more often than not that the work orders for the Black managers were being pushed to the bottom. I just kind of did an individual protest to say to the boss that I don’t think what you’re doing is fair. It frustrates me when you have me to go up and take care of this work order for this White manager when the work orders for the Black manager came in first. I said, you’ve done that too many times so I’m an African American, so I can’t take you mistreating ... even though that person may not ever know what you did, but I know what it. And I’m Black and so I would wish that, I would hope that you all would be fair about this, and let’s take the work orders in the manner that you told me that they would be done. So, I did have an opportunity to speak up there and the boss did take into consideration what I said and that kind of nipped that problem in the bud.

Back in 2003 I was on a mission trip down in Belize. I was staggered by something I saw there. Me being one of two African American students with a group of White people. Our hosts were Black people there in Belize. Well, the students that were with me, most of them had been on campus with me for a couple of years. Most of which didn’t even know my name. Barely spoke to me. And I’m a very outgoing person. I speak to everybody. [inaudible 00:12:43] wouldn’t even speak to me. Sat in class and rarely spoke to me. 

We were there for those two weeks in Belize, working at this church and [inaudible 00:12:52] there and all of these little Black kids, who look just like me, who were there doing vacation bible school and these White students they were loving on these little Black kids. They were hugging them and just being so cordial and kind to them. The last night before we left our missionary professor, he said, “You know what? Let’s talk about some things that have transpired over the last couple of weeks and let’s just kind of recap what’s going on.” And so [inaudible 00:13:16] some of the positive things that had taken place, but I said there’s just a [link 00:13:18] that is lingering in my mind. I’ve got to get it off my chest.

I said, it bothers me that most of you guys who are with me, you all don’t even acknowledge my presence on the campus, there are very few African Americans ... I think it was 20-something of us on that campus. But for me to see you guys loving on these little Black kids and Hispanic kids and what have you, you all have been loving on them, you’re treating them like royalty and like they’re the most precious thing ever. Then you don’t even see me. I see you more than that. The situation that you see here in Belize in Central America is right in your backyard in Birmingham, Alabama and Bessemer, Alabama where I live. There’s poverty all around you. And people that look like these people and you don’t even make an effort to even reach out.

I’m troubled by that, being a Christian, us being Christians how is it that we as Christians we would have no concern about each other. Again, I was baffled by that. Think about the other situations, maybe I come to 2008, the presidential election, President Obama is up for election over against John McCain on the Republican side, Obama democratic nominee. And I remember being a student my second year at Beeson Divinity School. At that time working on my MDiv. I just remember the time, I think Kristen you were there as well, and I just remember being in the hallways with fellow students, and I remember White guys just standing right there in my face, laughing, making a mockery about the possibility of an African American being the president of the United States. I mean, in this Christian community.

So, I’m just torn by this, but I didn’t say a thing. I just allowed the talk to go on and so forth. I should never forget the day after President Obama was elected. I was there on the campus at the Divinity School. What I’m about to tell you is really true. I walked on that campus and I began to look in the faces of young White students. Male students in particular. See the anger and the fire in their eyes. One particular professor that day, later on, in my afternoon class, Dr. Doug [Wester 00:15:18] matter of fact, he saw the tension. He felt it. He took on the challenge of being bold enough to have a conversation piece about it.

The only thing about that is I was the only African American student in that class that day. So, he just kind of opened up and allowed the students to kind of freely express themselves and for 30 or 40 minutes I just listened to White male after White male express his frustration that countries around the world were celebrating and so forth and so on. And I sat there listening and I was just get angrier and angrier by the minute. But I just didn’t say a word.

Then Dr. Wester turned to me and said, “Calvin, so what do you have to say about it? What do you think about all this?” And at that moment I opened my mouth and said, you know, it really hurts me as I listen to all of you guys. President Obama is the 44th president of the United States. All the presidents before him were White presidents. For the first time in the history of our nation there’s a president who’s in the office who looks like me. And you are angry about that. And for me it’s something to celebrate. I’m excited and I think other countries around the world, as you’ve seen them celebrate, you’re seeing them celebrate because for them it says there’s a possibility where their injustices they’re having in their respective countries [inaudible 00:16:31] that progress is on the way. That if America has elected a Black president with its history of racism and so forth and so on this is a great thing.

So, then I went on to say to my fellow students and Dr. Wester that I feel like I’m being punished for being excited for seeing a person in the president office who looks like me. When Dr. Wester ... whenever he sees me he also reminds me of that conversation of “you words were the defining moments of that discussion in that room that day.” It frustrated me to see the level of frustration with the young White men because a Black man had entered into the president’s office. 

As I think about how do I respond to racism in situations where I had to deal with overt racism. What I’ve learned to do as an African American person is that I just always just take the general approach ... I always seek to kind of understand where that person is coming from. What is their frame of reference? Dr. King was giving a speech at one event in the ‘60s and there was a White man who walked up on the stage and slapped Dr. King while he was giving the speech. 

He was speaking to this audience of non violent protestors. When this White man walked up on the stage and slapped him this group of non violent people, they all of a sudden changed from being non violent to ready to [inaudible 00:17:43] that man. They said in that effect, “Let us take him out back and let us do to him what they’ve been doing to us for nearly 400 years.” And Dr. King was able to calm the crowd, only by saying to them, “What if you lived in a household where your parents told you that Black people were animals? What if the neighbors that you lived by shared that same mindset? And the kids that you played with, their parents shared that same view? What if when you went to church, the pastor and the church members shared those views? What if when you went to school that same view was shared? And you went off to college and the same views were shared? If so, how would you be any different from this man if you were raised in that kind of context?”

And so what Dr. King in essence delivered to them was Proverbs 4:7 wisdom [inaudible 00:18:27] therefore get wisdom, but in all your getting, get understanding. So, what he did to calm that non violent crowd ... the way he [inaudible 00:18:35] and moved them from [inaudible 00:18:36] to being non violent again is he carried them, ushered them into that man’s world. And so the lingering question on every one of those people in the audiences’ mind is, “Would I be any different from this man had I been exposed to the same kind of environment?” 

So, how do I respond? I respond kind of with Martin Luther King ... I’m always thinking in that context to say I don’t know this person’s background. I don’t know what led this person to feel the way they feel or to have hate or indifference toward me. There’s got to be a reason. Whatever the case, I’m going to be cordial. I’m going to show Christ in whatever the situation.

What am I teaching the next generation? Well, I’m teaching the next generation just what I’ve told you and that kind of mantra from Dr. Martin Luther King.


>>Kristen Padilla:


Thank you, Dr. Bell. Dr. Moss?


>>Dr. Moss:

Racism and racial insensitivity and racial injustice affected me in a tremendous way. I am, as an adult, angry. I am angry with a question attached to it. How dare you? And I’m speaking that because some time in life if you are privileged or you think you’re privileged you do not put much thought to racism. If I’m in an environment where I’m not affected ... I went to an all Black school. I wasn’t affected by racism. Of course I had to deal with it with my grandchildren and began to help them understand some things. But when I attended seminary I saw so much racism I was juxtaposed between sexism and racism. 

So, I was trying to deal with all of that at one time. And the way it affected me, it caused me to when I look at God and theology and I was in seminary because I wanted to learn it was a predominantly White seminary, but I was so determined to get what I came to get that I put up with being ignored as long as I got my information that I thought I needed. Because I had my own view of God. But the racism under the umbrella of a seminary, it was just unreal.

I think it was Maya Angelou who said, “if a person shows you who they are, believe them.” I got to see theologians, doctors, PhDs who were just downright racist. But yet they opened the Word of God, the scripture, and interpreted, but they interpreted it with a slanted lens that left me out, Black and woman. And I struggled for awhile with, “Are you okay, Mary?” And I had to come back and get my own grounding, because I understood that God made us and created us in his image, and I couldn’t see where these good White boys down at the seminary made the split. Because [inaudible 00:21:40] was superiority and they truly felt and feel, that’s why we’re experiencing what we’re experiencing right now, that hadn’t gone anywhere. It’s systemic. It’s been there a long time. The schools that we are trying to enter never really looked at ... Southern Baptist for instance, considered the Black man as 3/5ths of a man. 

Now, I’ve heard all the stories why, but they still reduced the Black man. So much so that that has systemic impact that’s affecting the whole role of the Black man and ultimately the Black pastor. Because what happens is God is removed out of who God is. So, how did it affect me? Even that way as affecting the Black man and his role in his home, in his church, and et cetera. 

So, racism has a haunting affect on me. So much so that I became ... I am suspicious of White folks. I don’t care how much they hug me. I am suspicious of all these good White folks who are missionaries. But their hearts are dark. I heard my brother, Bell, talk about the kids in Belize and the kids here. And I stretch minds even further. I’m angry because in my congregation, even though I have White members, I’m predominantly Black. But a lot of our Black members are sitting in White churches who are getting the benefit of financial support and they don’t even like Black folk. And I can tell you why. They do not sit in the hierarchy of decision making.

And whenever it is it becomes then glaring racism. You can sit, I’ll let one of you in, but really even if you have a suggestion it would never hit policy books. It would never hit procedure books. And you’ll always get, “Thank you, brother.” White folks cause me to define for my church, “mission” as Jesus intended mission. Who happened to be a Black man. Mission for White folks, as I perceive it, is helping the poor little Black folks. And in helping the poor little Black folk, God is pleased with [my] effort. 

And so it infuriates me what I hear, what I see, and what’s being perpetrated through seminaries in particularly. Because then what we don’t realize, what we’re taught in seminary especially with the African American men is brought back and perpetrated within the church. And ultimately among the [inaudible 00:24:45] of membership. 

How do I respond when I encounter racism with ...? I have two approaches. In some ways I’m just downright crazy and at other times I’m just as sweet and loving as Jesus would want me to be. And as sweet and loving as he is he threw tables. And as sweet and loving as Jesus is he spoke truth to power. In fact, my sermon for Sunday has to do with speaking truth to power. Because I have ears that need to hear truth. And not what has been passed down to them by hearts that have never changed.

Something that someone shared with me and I’ve held it, because I found this to be true, that a mind changed against its will remains the same still. And that’s where I have racists.


>>Doug Sweeney:


Of course there are many hurdles to discuss when it comes to overcoming and overturning racism in our society, but if I could ask each of you to name one that’s really at the forefront of your mind, that’s important for all of our listeners to be thinking about, as we address problems of racism and racial injustice in the society today – what one hurdle would you want to get on people’s mind?


>>Dr. Outlaw:


In order to correct the problem you have to identify that you have a problem or there is a problem. To the extent that all of us are in the business of educating others, I think it’s imperative that we sensitize ourselves to our commonalities, but also our unique differences. That those of us who are in the pastoral ministry, who have gone to these seminaries that are teaching from predominantly Euro-centric perspectives are going to get just that. And until these seminaries recognize the fact that different cultures here in America, different folks ... our churches are segregated and continue to be segregated. 

So, there has to be some repentance. First you’ve got to acknowledge that there is a problem and that systemic racism still exists. So, when we begin to identify that there is still a problem then we can have some corrections. 


>>Doug Sweeney:


Dr. Bell, I wonder if I could call on you next? 


>>Dr. Bell:


The problem I think about is White privilege. We are partially sheltered in as a result of Covid19. Our country was shut down. All of a sudden there’s starting to be a noise in the majority White communities that the specialists in the medical profession, or what have you, started saying, okay, the majority of the patients we’re seeing dying from Covid19 are African American. So, then that news started spreading out and people started looking back and so some of my White friends who are pastors and what have you, saying ... in their communities the question was mainly asked, “Do you know anybody that has Covid19?” “No, no, no, no ...” 

And so it seems like that once it was learned that, okay, the majority of the people who are dying as a result of Covid19 are African Americans that we started seeing just droves of White people in capitals all around the nation [inaudible 00:27:48] protesting “re-open the nation! Re-open the nation!” For me and for people in my community, we were stunned. Are you serious?

I think about the recent events with the murders of these young African American by police officers. That’s kind of in miniature as it relates to Covd19 and the amount, the number of African American people that are dying. Well, so the economy is the driving [inaudible 00:28:10] so we can live with [only 00:28:12] White people dying from Covid19, Black people are going to die, and then there’s Hispanics ... their numbers are up, too, they’re dying, so hey, so be it. Let’s count it as a loss and let’s go back to work.

Knowing that many of the jobs that Black and underprivileged people are working in are factories and plants and things where people have to work in close proximity. Restaurants and things of that nature. So, for me, the greatest hurdle to overcome is White privilege. It’s those who are in power. Those who are used to having all of the privileges that American promised, even from its inception. [inaudible 00:28:45] specifically, more pointedly, White privileged Christians, until their minds get to a place to say, okay, people are more important than our comfort.


>>Kristen Padilla:


Pastor Thomas Beavers, what do you see as the greatest hurdles to combating racism today?


>>Dr. Beavers:


I think one of the biggest hurdles is silence. White silence and the silence of even Black people who are privileged who are not affected directly by racism. My whole message has been that the pledge of allegiance would never become a reality without the Black negro national anthem, “Life every voice,” and so we say our pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Oftentimes when we see injustices in society it is the voice of the Black people that is lifted against the injustice. It is the voice of the oppressed that is lifted against the injustice. The voice of the marginalized that is lifted against the injustice and nothing changes. 

The states are still not united. We’re not one nation under God. And there’s liberty and justice for some, but not all. It is not until every voice is lifted. The Black voice and the White voice. The privileged and those that are non privileged. When we begin to lift our voices together and cry out against injustices of society that we will begin to see change start to take place.

One of the hurdles to lifting our voice is that it comes with a cost. And so the way that people try to get around the cost of lifting your voice. We speak up to God in prayer, but we don’t speak out to the world against injustice. There’s an extreme difference. You don’t get off the hook just because you pray about it. I think that prayer is needed. A matter of fact, I know that prayer is needed. That’s a vital part. That’s all we have [inaudible 00:30:43]. Speaking up to God in prayer [inaudible 00:30:47] the leaders to speak out to the world against injustice.

Speaking up to God in prayer is safe. Speaking out to the world against injustice is unsafe. Because when the world hears what you really think about injustice and what you really believe about injustice you can prepare yourself to lose some friends and prepare yourself to lost some relationships. So, I’m challenging all White people. I’m challenging all privileged Black people who are not affected directly by the injustices of society – start to lift your voice. When you lift your voice, do not be afraid to say Black Lives Matter. We never said that Black Lives Matter only – we said that Black Lives Matter. We know that all lives matter. We just need help with Black lives, because Black lives are the ones that are in danger at this particular moment in time. And all lives don’t matter if Black lives don’t matter, because Black lives are a part of all Lives.

If we were in the Jewish holocaust the hash tag would not be “Black Lives Matter,” it would be “Jewish Lives Matter.” But it seems that every other day it’s a Black person that is unarmed that is being killed at the hands of a White police officer, and since Black lives are in danger we cannot be afraid to cry out against injustice. We cannot be afraid to articulate in our circles, in our spheres of influence, that Black lives matter. And until every voice is lifted we won’t see change take place. So, the biggest hurdle is silence.


>>Doug Sweeney:


Amen. Very wise words. You have been listening to Dr. Thomas Beavers, Dr. Mary Moss, Dr. Calvin Bell, and Dr. Patricia Outlaw. All friends and alumni of Beeson Divinity School who are here with us in a series of three podcast interviews talking about the challenges of race and racial injustice in our society and in our churches.

We hope the Lord has spoken to you in this podcast episode. We also hope you’ll tune in again next week as we bring the conversation all the way up into the present in our churches and talk about the challenge of pastoral ministry in the midst of the current racial crisis. Thank you very much for being with us. 

Goodbye for now. 


>>Kristen Padilla:


You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.