Beeson podcast, Episode 486 Charlie Dates March 3, 2020 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford university. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson podcast. I am Doug Sweeney here with my cohost Kristen Padilla and we are delighted to welcome you to another week of encouraging conversation on the web. Today's guest is a long time and very dear friend of mine who is at Beeson this week, preaching in chapel and speaking to students as part of African American Ministry Emphasis Month. Kristen will introduce you to Dr. Dates momentarily, but before she does let me make just a couple of announcements. In just two weeks, our annual William E. Conger Jr. Lectures on Biblical Preaching will begin with Dr. Jared Alcantara of Baylor's Truett Seminary. Dr Alcantara will be with us March 17 through 19 speaking in Hodges Chapel at 11:00 a.m. Each day. His lectures are free and open to all and we hope that you will come. Also, on March 23rd, the Robert Smith Jr. Preaching Institute is hosting a Day with a Beeson Author event featuring our own Dr. Gerald R. McDermott, who retires at the end of this academics year. Spend the day with Dr. McDermott as he teaches from his book Everyday Glory: The Revelation of God in All of Reality , which he spoke with us about on the podcast back on December 17. Registration is limited and costs $25 which includes a copy of his book, lunch, refreshments, and excellent teaching. Doug Sweeney: You can find registration details and more information on our website. Beesondivinity.com/events. Now, Kristen, will you please introduce today's guest and get our conversation started? Kristen Padilla: Thanks Doug. I'm glad to introduce today's guest. We have the Reverend Dr. Charlie Dates with us in the studio. He is pastor of Progressive Baptist church in Chicago, a historic church there, and he is married to his wife Kirstie and they have two children, Charlie and Claire. Welcome Dr. Dates. Charlie Dates: Thank you so much and thank you Dr. Sweeney as well. Appreciate you all for having me. Kristen Padilla: Yeah. It's such a joy to have you on campus and to meet you in person and we always begin these podcasts with a brief introduction. We want to get to know you better. So if you could introduce yourself, where are you from? How did you come to faith in Jesus Christ, and anything you want to say about how God called you to ministry? Charlie Dates: Sure. My name is Charlie Dates, as you said. I am born and raised in Chicago, on the far South side of Chicago, and I had the privilege of growing up in a home of believers. My mother, my story's kind of like Timothy in the sense that Paul says to Timothy, "I'm confident that the faith that dwelt in your grandmother and your mother lives in you." My grandmother, Bernice Dates, who's gone home to be with the Lord now, was one of the Lord's most challenging converts. I'd like to say [inaudible] silly about her. She had a fire in our family, which was amazing and warm and still lives on in us. And then my mom, who's yet with us, is a woman of faith. And so I came to faith early in life and not only by precept, but by example too. Mom taught us to pray, taught Sunday school in our church. She didn't teach my Sunday school class, but she taught Sunday school. Charlie Dates: She's also a Chicago public school teacher for a while, and so there were three of us. I'm the baby boy, but she insisted that whatever we did in school, extracurricular activities and the other, that we committed some time to the ministry and the local church. So I don't really have a time in life where I remember not being connected or serving in a local church and that is a heritage that I have and yet it's a faith that I own. Knowing your book, Dr. Sweeney, the American Evangelical Story, you dedicate the book to your parents and you say something like, "I'm thankful for my evangelical heritage." I resonate with that, that there's a line in my family as far back as I can see of people who trusted Christ and have given their lives in some way to ministry in the local church. Doug Sweeney: Charlie, you and I met long ago. Charlie Dates: Yeah. Doug Sweeney: At Trinity Evangelical Divinity School where I was a young professor and you were an even younger student and I am grateful for our many years of friendship and partnership in the gospel. But I mentioned that to our listeners to set up the next question. Why did you go to Trinity? Trinity's a largely, they try to be as multiethnic as they can be, but it's still a largely white seminary. Could you just say a little bit about why the Lord took you there and then if you're willing, what do you want pastors in training or prospective pastors to know about the importance of theological education? Charlie Dates: My, my. So first of all, you kind of understated it. Dr. Sweeney, for those of you who are listening to this, is the earthly human reason, this is the truth, why I'm Dr. Charlie Dates. So he is my first reader on my dissertation and at a time when I needed some direction, some clarity and some fire, Dr. Sweeney put his foot down and helped me to get it done. I still remember some of those first drafts of some of those chapters with all those red marks on it with using African-American with the dash or without a dash, when to make it adjectival or some kind of modifier. Thank you for that and so I would like to think providentially that your ministry is part of the reason why I ended up TEDS. But I went to TEDS with really no real intention of going to Trinity. Charlie Dates: I have a picture of you teaching a class. I was showing the kids, back on the first day of the year from, oh, I guess 2004. A long time ago now. I had no intention of going. I wanted to go to Yale. I had been admitted to Yale Divinity School and you had done some work in the Edwards Archives there as well, I came to know after a while. And I got a full ride to do a master's in human resource management and industrial relations at Illinois. All of that to say I had no intention, again, on going to TEDS. I felt called to preach and to pastor, but I didn't want to face all of the trouble that a pastor, particularly pastors I had seen, go through in the context of a local church. And so I tried to strike a deal with God. Charlie Dates: If you let me go a professional route, have a good career, raise a family, I'll be the best help and support a pastor could ever have and I'd preach too. That's what you called me to do. But the Lord wrestled me down and it's actually Dr. Dwight Perry, who's the first African American PhD out of TEDS, who introduces me to Trinity and gives me that kind of connection. And so I went to undergrad at the university of Illinois at Urbana champagne. I was relatively accustomed to surviving and trying to thrive in predominantly white environments. It's kind of the plight of being black in America in a real sense. You've got to know how to survive outside of your context. And so academically I learned how to survive and to thrive, but the white evangelical context is a little different. It's a bit more conservative than say, the white liberal context where I studied in undergrad and TEDS kind of is on an island. Charlie Dates: It's in a very wealthy part of Illinois, down the street from the old Jordan estate and the houses around look nothing like campus. So it was not only a white conservative institution, it was also a wealthy part of our state. So there were multiple adaptations that had to be made. I think one of the challenges for me was not having what I thought was a sufficient representation in the faculty. So we have more African American students on campus than I originally anticipated, but we have fewer African American professors. So I think I have Bruce Fields and Crawford Loritts, were the two black professors I had. And the challenge that that can give in an evangelical situation ... and by the way, I should say, by evangelical, I don't mean kind of right wing Republican Christianity, as it were. I mean more so the broader breadth of gospel representation. So Lutherans and Presbyterians and Baptists. You run the gamut there, that kind of wider, broader breadth. Charlie Dates: The deal is at a school like that, you can start to think that all of the theology composed and the books written and the education to be attained comes out of a kind of white male space. And that's not true. But that's the impression that you can get when your professors kind of all share that cultural background. But God was gracious to me, as I am sure he has been gracious to many others who have come through, and that is God has given me relationships that extend beyond the cultural predispositions I had coming in. Did not make the force of the gospel any less strong. In fact, I feel like even in our relationship, Doc, the gospel came to power in more manifest ways in my life. Charlie Dates: Because it was with you that I read James Cone and got a chance to process through. We talked about your days at Vanderbilt and the beauty of being able to read broadly and to question context, even our own context at TEDS, without being ungrateful for it. We were able to question it freely. I remember I took, I forget what I took Woodbridge for, it was one of the history courses. And I wanted to talk more about the civil rights movement, because it was like a blurb on one of the days. And in his own Woodbridgian way, hmm, he made that face. And the next semester some of the students that were taking this class told me his syllabus changed, and he told his students that it was our conversation that prompted the changing of that syllabus. And so I found remarkable grace in that space. Charlie Dates: I also need to say I did not feel the pressure to be white. Not that I was ever going to be, but I didn't feel that. I felt the freedom to be who I am, what God is making me to be, to explore it. But I got the biblical underpinnings of the rich faith that I own in ways that are layered and textured at TEDS. So I don't know if that answers your question, but it was a rich time for me and God used it as a means of grace in my life. Kristen Padilla: Let's continue this theme of theological education and being a minority in a predominantly Anglo American space. Earlier today you met with some of our students who are part of our newly formed minority student fellowship, now called All Saints Fellowship. And so you had the opportunity to meet with them over lunch and have a conversation. What words of encouragement did you share with them as being students, minority students in a predominantly Anglo American space, and then what might you want to say to seminaries like Beeson or TEDS as we think about how we can better care for and create spaces for minorities? Charlie Dates: So that was a long lunch. It'd be hard to summarize in a few moments what was said. But I think to the question that came up there and that often comes up in context like these, people tend to say is Christianity a white man's religion? And that's because of the, I call it a kind of theological imperialism, just a lack of hearing from ethnic minorities as it were at the table where theology is composed and where doctrine and the relationship of doctrines to one another are formulated and dispensed. There is, in a real sense, more black presence at some of our evangelical schools then there might be at some of our more "liberal or progressive" schools. Which by the way, I think the word evangelical is beautiful. I think the church should have it. I also think the word liberal and progressive, they are beautiful and the church should have those too. But whereas some in the liberal and progressive corridors, as it were a part of the academy, point their finger at black people in evangelical spaces and decry our supposed captivity to white theology. Charlie Dates: I think those in the progressive and liberal corridors need to know how much of their theology comes from the German enlightenment, from the European enlightenment period. I don't know that they have reckoned with the fact that we are all impressed upon one another when, and what I told the students today, much of our faith is anchored in North Africa and West Africa. So I think that the black student in environments like this and like TEDS have a clearer line to trace back theologically to black and brown-skinned people in the early centuries than they do at other institutions. Now the challenge is, like I just talked about [inaudible 00:13:58], the under representation of persons like myself in the faculty and administration, and hopefully that will change. But I sought to encourage them that really, in my opinion, in terms of serving the church, a high view, high Christology and a high view of the scriptures combined with an open understanding of culture and the social structures and systemic injustice and a resistance against systemic injustice is what the church needs. Charlie Dates: That the church needs persons who come out of the academy with a blazing heart and passion and a bright mind and a surrendered heart to the Lord Jesus Christ. I mean, what can TEDS and Beeson do? I think what Dr. Sweeney did with me and for me. You got to push and make room for students like me to do research degrees. And as God calls us, keep the door open at the academy so that we can have a foot in the church and a foot in the academy. I told Kirstie actually before I came up, I said, "dear, this place is beautiful. I think I could come here in so many years." I can't say how many years, people from my church may hear this, but I do think that we've got to produce scholars and then we have to make room for scholars, and there are challenges that come with that. But there's nothing we cannot face. That said, the world is open. I think America, the landscape of America is changing and is ready for revival and revolution from within the church, and who better than schools like Beeson and TEDS and others who are committed to the gospel to be at the center of that? Doug Sweeney: So Pastor Dates, in your answer to the last question from Kristen, you talked about the positive use of the word progressive and I thought, hey, that's a good segue to the next question I want to ask him about." And that has to do with the congregation you serve in Chicago, which is called Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago, a church that I love and know, but you love and know even better than I do. So twofold question. Number one, how'd you get to progressive? And number two, what's it like serving at such a historic congregation in Chicago? Charlie Dates: The answer to number one, still trying to figure that out. How do we get to progressive? So I served at a church that is absolutely humongous in Chicago, the Salem Baptist church of Chicago, for five years before I became pastor at Progressive. And I felt called, I've always felt called to serve in a pastoral capacity. Kirstie and I were given a number of invitations to leave Chicago, but we felt like God was opening a door for us there. And so this is a church that is 101 years old now. And I came in 2011 as her youngest senior pastor in that church's, at that time, rich 93 year history. And that's a perilous work for a young guy going into old historic church. But those people have been so kind and openhearted and open-handed and generous with us and we've seen the church bounce back to life. Charlie Dates: It was probably, when we came, about 150 people on a Sunday morning. Average age, Jarvis Sanford, who was the chairman of our deacons at the time, say it was about 65. He joked with Kirstie and I when we came. She was 29, I was 30. And he said, "by just you guys coming, you're dropping the average age to 45." So we've seen the church just grow both in number and in depth and get back on mission. So having served this, having served at Salem, I was preaching on a regular basis, and the services at Salem are televised live. And so the people at Progressive were watching me grow and preach and I'm told that some of them would say things like "he sure would be an ideal pastor for us." I didn't have any of that in mind. I'm grateful for the call though. Glad that I've been given the chance to serve and it's been a wonderful journey. Kristen Padilla: You mentioned preaching and you delivered an excellent sermon today. Charlie Dates: Thank you, Kristen. Kristen Padilla: And you also lecture around the country regarding the topic of the African American preaching tradition. I should also mention to our listeners that you write the preface to a newly published book on preaching entitled "Say It: Celebrating Expository Preaching in the African American Tradition." So for those listening who are not African American, I wonder if you could explain or tell about the rich history of expository preaching in the African American church and how it's different than, let's say, white expository preaching. Charlie Dates: Well, first of all, I should say kudos to Dr. Eric Redmond for his hard work in putting that book together. I did the preface and another chapter inside the book and served on his editorial team, and there's so much that that book has to offer and so much more that works like it need to contribute. It's essentially a compilation of sermons from some of the best expositors in black preaching today. But it's just a swath. I mean, it's like rubbing a cotton swab in your mouth. It doesn't at all get to the totality of the breadth that's available. And so whereas on one hand I applaud Dr. Redmond and I'm grateful to be a part of it, I think there's so much more than needs to be said, so much more that needs to be done. I'm a budding church historian, right, so he's the- Doug Sweeney: Amen. Charlie Dates: Yeah, he's the real, I'm a budding church historian. And one of the things that matters to me as a church historian is context and being able to connect the dots. I wouldn't talk about black exposition as a genre of preaching apart from biblical preaching and the black church context. That is the narrative out of which many of us have come to faith and many of our churches have handled the Bible. In other words, some of the best black preaching has not been exposition per se, historically speaking, but it's been thoroughly biblical preaching. And when you look at the history of Christianity in the world, I mean, some of the best preaching and teaching we've had, non-black has not been expository. I mean, Charles Spurgeon was not an expositor, he was a Bible preacher, but he was an effective Bible preacher. So I want to be clear that I don't elevate exposition to some category that condescendingly looks down upon other forms of biblical preaching. Charlie Dates: It's just my preferred way of preaching because I think it gets at explaining the context, or the passage within its context, so as to get to the intended meaning that the Holy Spirit gave the author. And so part of the beauty of that kind of preaching in the black context is at least threefold. Number one, preaching in the African American experience and expositional preaching has had to be concerned both with the slavery of sin and the sin of slavery. We've had to give our attention both to the depravity of mankind and the injustices of systems that bind and oppress people. And even in our meeting today with your students, one of them was talking about how, from their context, they read the book of Exodus different from the way it had been taught in some classes at times. And that's because the history of our people is one that emerges out of recent bondage. Charlie Dates: That's a gift. That's a gift. And I think because of the existential lived experience of black people in America, we bring to the proclamation a textured experience with the God of liberation. So he is both the liberator from sin, but he's also our only hope for liberation in these yet to be United States. Number two is I think exposition in the black context of preaching in the black context, majors in both proclamation and explanation. I think the way that a lot of people are trying to preach in evangelical seminaries, they're trying to explain the Bible. And so you get up and really you're just, it's not so much a running commentary, but I mean, you're saying this is what's here, this is what this word means, and you're showing an idea, maybe even a linear thought. Man, and we don't give a care about stopping there. Charlie Dates: I should say that the preacher's job is to gather the information to the point where it serves for proclamation. And so when I get up to preach, I'm thinking, what does this passage demand of me? What worship does it claim from my heart? And what attitude does it shape in my mind? And I'm seeking to deliver the authority of God's word in a way where it changes the lives of the people here. So I'm not getting up to explain so much as I'm getting up to proclaim. That's not unique to black preaching. It's just part of, I think, the gift that black preaching illustrates. The other thing that I would say is that there is celebration in black preaching beyond the climactic conclusion of the sermon, the hooping. But hopefully you felt even in my preaching today,= a kind of joy that emerges from walking with God and the God of the Bible. And even a joy amid the dissatisfaction of life, where you know things aren't changing as rapidly as they want in America, as we need in America, not in a positive direction. Charlie Dates: And yet we have a real hope and a real joy anchored in God and from his word. So this morning in First Peter, Peter is writing to a church besieged by conflict, but he's writing to a people who have joy and who are tethered to one another and commending that joy based upon something that extends beyond their present circumstances. And so I think black preaching has done that and I think really black preaching turns in on America and on the American church, and witnesses that you can thrive on the margins. You don't have to be at the center of power. You don't have to be at the seat of government. I mean, for what we're saying, for what is genuine Christianity in America today, it's not sitting at the seat of power. I mean, I wouldn't call the Christianity that's pushing Mr. Trump, with all due respect to your listeners, as like the real thing. But I would say even when those in power, disregard the historical faith, we still can make it and we still can thrive yet on the margins. And that's part of what the witness of black preaching bequeaths to the larger American church. Doug Sweeney: Dr. Dates, the people listening to us who've been around Beeson for a long time know well that you are not the first fine African-American preacher who has at Hodges Chapel. Charlie Dates: That's right. Doug Sweeney: Many others have gone before you. I'm thinking of Gardner Taylor, James Massey, our own Dr. Smith, Ralph West, last week Cokeisha Bailey Robinson, Maurice Watson and lots of others as well. And they have had a big salutary effect on Beeson Divinity School and the training of its preachers. But with them in mind, and with you here with us, we wanted to ask you, maybe for people especially who know a little bit but not a lot about the traditions of African American preaching and want to know more, what preachers should they be listening to? And if this isn't too complicated, which are the ones that really have had the biggest shaping influence on your own life? Charlie Dates: Sure. So I would say that preaching in our context is so varied. You know, I like different people for different reasons. You mentioned some of my favorites. I mean, Ralph West and Maurice Watson are at the top of my list along with the pastor Dr. Robert Smith and Gardner Taylor. So I would add to those, Sandy Ray, William Augustus Jones, I would add S.M. Lockridge. Paul Shepherd is a name that deserves to be called in this context. And names like C.L. Franklin and Donald Parson and Jasper Williams and Bishop Kenneth Ulmer in Los Angeles. Melvin White. E.K. Bailey, of course. Cokeisha's father. Get everything you can that E.K. Bailey preached and everything you can that, that the other's whose names I've called have preached. And then Jeffrey Johnson in Indianapolis. James Meeks, who I served with in Chicago. For varying reasons, these are names that belonged to the ages. B.J. Tatum, a name that's not so nationally known as some of the others, but is a classic expositor down at the Canaan Baptist church in Urbana, Illinois. Charlie Dates: So many. Specific to me, I find myself as of late listening to some J.H. Jackson. And J.H. Jackson, as you know, president at the National Baptist Convention for decades. He's the reason we have a Progressive National Baptist Convention because the tenure of his presidency went a few decades too long. So, and Jared Alcantara, who's coming to be with you is writing a book right now on J.H. Jackson. So maybe in a year or so that will be available. But he was a silver-tongued orator. Oh, my. I mean, the reason he kept getting elected, by the way, which I hope Jared covers in his book, is because when people came to the convention to put him out, to elect someone else, they made the mistake of letting him preach the night of the election. And he would get up and preach and people would just start weeping and they'd start tearing up their ballots. Charlie Dates: You know, what do we need another president for? And he was an antagonist to the civil rights movement, strangely enough, but he was just an amazing preacher. And his predecessor, L.K. Williams at the Olivette Baptist church in Chicago, was an even more remarkable preacher. An untimely death, died on a plane going to Michigan to campaign for a Republican Congressman of all people. But he was just a brilliant mind. Brilliant mind in Chicago. So J.H. Jackson, L.K. Williams are some, I also think that William Augustus Jones, whose name I just called, who pastored in New York along with Sandy Ray and Gardner Taylor. Oh, man. Their mansions will be big heaven. Doug Sweeney: And the recordings of some of the sermons and the men you just mentioned are available if people want to go and listen? Charlie Dates: On YouTube. Yeah, on YouTube even. Or you could go to Concord Church in Brooklyn, New York to get whatever you can of Gardner Taylor. You can go to Judson Press and get some there. But the J.H. Jackson that I've been listening to is on YouTube mainly. You can go to the Chicago History Museum, which is across the street from the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and you can pull up some of his papers and some of his other work there. And then E.K. Bailey, you still can get through Sheila Bailey Ministries, a lot of his material. So A. Louis Patterson, though, is another name that absolutely. A. Louis Patterson and E.K. Bailey are kind of the godfathers of exposition, a popularized exposition, in the African American preaching context. But I think Paul Shepherd's father, who pastored in Philadelphia, I can't pull his name down right now, was doing exposition before A. Louis Patterson and E.K. Bailey. This is what I'm saying. There are names, and if you guys get to talk to Paul Shepherd, he would gladly tell you, but there are names of pastors who were doing amazing exposition in the black community before it hit like the national Baptist Convention level. It's just fantastic. Kristen Padilla: Reverend Dates, take us to Hodges Chapel for just a moment. Earlier today, you, as I've already said, you delivered a wonderful sermon on First Peter 1:22 through 25. We'll have it on our website later, but for those listening who weren't at the service today, could you summarize your message for them or bring out some of the points that you were trying to make that you felt like God was speaking through the text? Charlie Dates: Take you to Hodges Chapel, is what you just said. Let me tell you, if you're listening to this and you've not been to Hodges Chapel, you need to find a plane to Birmingham. What a beautiful space. That was the first time I ever preached with [inaudible] right at my feet while I was preaching. Doug Sweeney: Did he help? Charlie Dates: It was a fantastic experience. Well, so Dr. Sweeney sent me this list of passages, right? And I got a chance to pick from them in coming, and First Peter One happened to be on there and I was very grateful for it. Because in my travels, if I don't have to write a new sermon, it's very, very helpful. So we preached through First Peter at Progressive about two and a half years ago. And Peter argues at the end of that heavy emphasis on doctrine that the truest indicator if the orthodoxy we claim has a hold on us, is the way in which we love one another. Charlie Dates: That's the essence of the message. That the text argues that what salvation produces in the heart of the Christian is a love, an ardent, fervent love, for others in the local church. But he goes on to argue, peter goes on to argue, that that's what salvation produces, but what produces our salvation is the living and enduring word of God. And that word has power. I just did my best to explain that word outlives us. It outlasts every great civilization and in spite of our temporal nature as human beings, we have a chance to touch something that lasts forever, to be a part of something that is eternal and to have our own lives made eternal through the seed which birthed our salvation, and that is the word of God. So I get excited just talking about it. I really do. There's no other book in the world like the Bible. There just isn't. It is authored by God. It reads us and so it's the way in which we come to know God more fully and to walk with his spirit. That's what I tried to communicate today. Doug Sweeney: It was a wonderful sermon. If you were not in chapel today, please rush to the Beeson YouTube site and listen to it. You will be blessed, I promise you. Charlie, we're almost out of time. Can we conclude by just giving our listeners a few words about what the Lord is doing in your life these days? Do you have any words of encouragement for people you've probably not even met, but are listening to you now and are going to go listen to your sermon? What's God's doing and what do you want them to know about the Lord's work in their lives? Charlie Dates: Yeah, I would say, thank you for that and thank you for this time. I would say that as a Christian you are never hopeless or helpless. If you ever get to rock bottom, the good news is there's a rock at the bottom and his name is Jesus Christ and regardless of the vicissitudes of life, the challenges that life brings, we have that stability. We have that great hope even in the face of death, and so take courage and journey on. The night may be long, but the morning is sure to come. God has a way of bringing beauty out of ashes and joy out of our pain and so trust him for that. I think what the Lord is doing in my life, is he's taking me to places like Beeson. I mean, this has been great. It really has. I've been just kind of all over seeing God's work in varying parts of the country, and I'm encouraged to know that God is at work in places I would not even assume to think he's at work. Charlie Dates: And so that inspires my own work in Chicago. We are building out what we call now the Progressive Center for Counseling Injustice. It's our church's own counseling center, which provides some mental health services, will provide some mental health services, to people within walking distance in our community, and it'll also do some neighborhood rally organizing kind of things to bring much needed things to our neighborhood. And so I'm excited for that. I'm excited to see our gospel footprint increase and hopeful to introduce people to the Lord Jesus Christ through the ways in which he practically changes their lives. My family's growing. I mean, we're not having any more kids right now, I should be clear about that. But our children are growing and Kirstie's thriving and so we're going to hold on and see what the end's going to be. Doug Sweeney: That's wonderful. You have been listening to Dr. Charlie Dates, pastor of Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago. A dear friend of mine, a fine preacher. Charlie, thank you so much for being with us this week. Charlie Dates: Thank you, Dr. Sweeney. Doug Sweeney: God bless you and God bless all of you who are listening to us. Thanks for being here. Goodbye for now. Kristen Padilla: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham at the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our cohosts are Doug Sweeney and myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at beesondivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.