Beeson podcast, Episode 459 Douglas A. Sweeney August 27, 2019 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. We began the Beeson podcast back in 2010 with an interview with the late Chuck Colson. Today is my final time to be the host of the Beeson podcast, and I have the privilege of interviewing my successor not only as the dean of Beeson Divinity School, but as the host of the Beeson podcast, Dr. Douglas Sweeney. I'm going to have a conversation with Doug today, but before we get to that, I thought we might just say thank you to all of you who have listened so faithfully. Many of you have come up when I've been speaking here or there and said how much the Beeson podcast has meant to you. Some of you have written your comments. We always love hearing from you, and I hope you'll continue to be a faithful listener and supporter of this ministry which is the Beeson podcast. Now, Doug, welcome to Beeson and welcome to the podcast. Doug Sweeney: Thank you very much. I'm thrilled to be here. Timothy George: Now, you just joined us as the dean of Beeson Divinity School this summer, and so you're new to Beeson, but you're not new to theological education or new to the Lord's work. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, your family. Doug Sweeney: Yeah, I grew up in a Christian family, both my grandfathers were pastors, both my parents were pastors' kids, and came to know the Lord at a very early age. In fact, I first prayed to receive Christ and to profess Christ as my Savior when I was on a preaching trip with my dad. My dad worked for Moody Bible Institute when I was a boy, and every once in a while, he'd get asked to go and supply preach at churches, and I liked to go with him. And every once in a while, it would just be my dad and me, and one time in the summer of 1971, when we were in the parking lot outside of the church in the West Side of Chicago where he was going to preach, he asked me if I'd like to pray and receive Christ, and if I was aware of the sin of my life, and wanted to repent and put my faith and trust in Jesus, and I said I did. Doug Sweeney: Honestly, I think the Holy Spirit was at work in my life before then. I think I had been spiritually regenerated even before I prayed that prayer. But that was the big day when I prayed to receive Christ and testified publicly about my faith in Christ, went home and called my grandparents, and they were thrilled, and it was a big day. So it's quite a blessing, I think, to have grown up in a Christian family like that. Timothy George: So you were led to faith in Christ by your own father, your own dad. Doug Sweeney: That's right. Timothy George: What a wonderful story. Doug Sweeney: Yes. Timothy George: I know you have one son, don't you? Doug Sweeney: I do. Timothy George: Tell us about him. Doug Sweeney: His name is David. He's 22 years old. He just finished college and got married, and he lives out in the state of Washington now. Timothy George: Wonderful. Well, you've mentioned your dad, your parents. Who are some other great Christian leaders who have shaped you and your vision as a leader, as a scholar in the Lord's church? Doug Sweeney: I think early on, the most significant influence of my spiritual life was my grandmother, who was a pastor's wife and had many grandchildren, but used to tell me every time I was with her that she prayed for me every single day. I really looked up to her as a role model in Christian discipleship, and I think her prayers availed much in my case. Doug Sweeney: My parents were also big influences on me spiritually as I was growing up. But when I got to college, I had a teacher named Mark Noll, who's kind of a famous church historian, who became a mentor to me and a role model to me. As I think about what it means to be a good, faithful Christian teacher and scholar, I often think about Mark and try to model my life and my ministry after him. Timothy George: Mark's been a great friend to Beeson Divinity School. He's been here several times to give lectures, and a great encourager in the work of this school. Doug Sweeney: He's a wonderful man, and he's a great role model for me. Timothy George: Now, we think of you in terms of your scholarly work on Jonathan Edwards. Now, we've heard of Edwards; in fact, he's one of the 16 figures in the Beeson Dome, so we see him when we worship in chapel. Doug Sweeney: That's right. Timothy George: How did you become interested in Jonathan Edwards? Doug Sweeney: Slowly. Slowly but surely. When I entered Wheaton College in the fall of 1983, I was an economics major heading to law school. I wanted to be a corporate lawyer. And I'll keep a long story short here, that's not what the Lord had for me, and in my first couple of years at college, He showed me that that's not what He had for me. And as He was showing me that, He was also helping me to sink much deeper roots than ever before in church history, in the Christian tradition. I grew up, as I've said, in a wonderful Christian family. I attended a wonderful church as a boy, it was a good Bible-teaching church. But it wasn't until college that I first learned about the great tradition of Christianity, and I began learning about that my sophomore year in college. Doug Sweeney: I had a class with Mark Noll on the Protestant Reformation that was just life-transforming for me, and I decided by the end of my sophomore year I would switch from being an econ major to being a history major. But I made that decision not for any sophisticated professional reasons, but simply because the Lord was using the study of church history to deepen my faith in an unprecedented way, and I wanted that to keep going. So I just kept on studying church history, and Mark Noll, my teacher, loved Jonathan Edwards, so now I'm getting to directly answer your question. Timothy George: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doug Sweeney: And then because my quest in history was so personal and so spiritual for me, I tended just to keep taking classes, very impractically, on subjects that helped me get a good feel for who I was as a Christian, what my Christian identity was, what my place was in the history of Christianity, why people in my church did things the way they did, and why people in other kinds of orthodox churches did things in the way they did. These things were just fascinating to me and spiritually edifying, and so I tended to choose classes either in the Reformation and older traditions of Christianity, or in modern evangelical movements. Doug Sweeney: And then I came to discover that Jonathan Edwards is somebody who's a really good person when you're looking for role models who embody the best of both of those worlds. He's a classical Protestant, fully committed to the traditions of the Reformation and the ancient church on the one hand, but he's also one of the founding fathers of our modern evangelical movement. So I became excited about Edwards both because my teacher liked him and because he was helping me on this quest to understand my faith better. Timothy George: I've sometimes said Jonathan Edwards is really the only theologian North America has produced. That may be a slight exaggeration, but he's in a category pretty much by himself, I think. The depth of his thought, the breadth of his spiritual life, I mean, the way he can introduce you to the deep things of God. Doug Sweeney: Yeah, and not only was he a brilliant man, not only was he a genius, but the profundity of his faith is just so compelling and inspiring. My wife thinks it's funny when I talk like this, because she thinks I'm kind of a church history geek, but I say Edwards is just an edifying man to spend time with. He's an edifying person to be with, and he's edified my spiritual life in remarkable ways. Timothy George: Now, you were involved at Yale with a special Edwards edition, the Yale Edwards Edition. Tell us about that. Doug Sweeney: Yeah, that was my first job when I finished graduate school. I went to work on the works of Jonathan Edwards. That's now morphed into what we call the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale, because we're done publishing all his works, and now the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale majors in helping pastors, students, professional scholars make good use of the materials that they've published over the years. Doug Sweeney: Yeah, but my first job when I was done with grad school was one of these fascinating postdoctoral kinds of positions where I did some teaching, but I also transcribed lots of Jonathan Edwards manuscripts and hosted visiting scholars working on Edwards, and we put on conferences. It was a great lot of fun. Timothy George: Yeah, wonderful. Now, you're coming to Beeson from a number of years, I don't know how many exactly, at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Doug Sweeney: That's right, 22 years. Timothy George: 22 years, that's a little stint. Doug Sweeney: It is. Timothy George: And among other things, you did a lot of things there, but you were the leader, the director of the Carl F. H. Henry Center for Theological Understanding. That's another name we know at Beeson. He actually spoke at my own installation as dean, way back in 1989. Been here a number of times when he was still with us in this world; he's moved to a better world now. Tell us about the work you did with the center, and Henry in particular. Why Henry? What does he have to say to evangelical Christians today? Doug Sweeney: Well, the Henry Center itself began from water cooler conversations among the faculty at Trinity in the year 2000. The faculty started talking about how much they would like to have an outreach center from Trinity whose mission would be to bridge the gap between the academy and the churches by forging partnerships between professors in the seminaries and frontline Christian ministers, who could work on kingdom projects together and bear better fruit for their collaboration than any one group would be able to bear working all by itself. Doug Sweeney: But then it quickly grew. We were able to raise significant funding for it, and it became a significant center, and the family that donated most of the money to the center were big fans of Dr. Henry. And Dr. Henry had been a teacher of mine when I was in seminary. Timothy George: At Trinity? Doug Sweeney: Yes. Timothy George: Ah. Doug Sweeney: So I was also a big fan of Dr. Henry. And you asked, what is important about Dr. Henry? Well, you know as well as I do, of course, probably better than I do, but seems to me that in the middle decades of the 20th century, Dr. Henry was sort of the dean of evangelical theologians in the United States, and inspired people who were just on the other side of the difficult fundamentalist/modernist controversies about the potential of Christian re-engagement in intellectual life. He showed us that you could be a conservative Christian and be fully engaged in what people used to call the life of the mind, and that was inspiring for lots of us. And then he was also one of the champions of the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy when there was lots of controversy about the doctrine of Scripture in the 1960s and '70s and so on, and so he's been a role model for many of us when it comes to maintaining a high view of the Bible. Timothy George: Let me mention two other things about Dr. Henry and have you comment on them. Everything you say is absolutely the case, but we remember him also because he was the founding editor of Christianity Today, way back in 1956. Doug Sweeney: That's right. Right. Timothy George: And then again in 1966, he chaired with Billy Graham the great Berlin Congress on World Evangelization. So he had a great heart for evangelism, for winning people to Christ, and for propelling the Christian witness into the arena of public thought and public life. How important are those things to you, and to us as Christians today? Doug Sweeney: I think those things are crucial. And I usually think about the latter thing, that is, Dr. Henry's interest in evangelism, in the context of seminaries, because it's important for those of us who are academics and seminary-type people, professors and scholars and so on, to remember that we do these things in the service of the Lord. This is part of our discipleship, this is a way of glorifying God, and these things ought to coincide with practices like sharing your faith with other people, doing evangelism. And Dr. Henry's a really inspiring person who just showed us that this is the case. He loved Jesus, he loved telling people about Jesus just as much as he liked writing the big fat theology books that he wrote. Timothy George: You know, the last time he spoke here at Beeson, he wasn't able to stand, it was near the end of his life, and so he had great difficulty with movement. But he sat in a chair, and what he did was tell about how he found Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord, his personal testimony. And all of us who were here were deeply moved by hearing this great scholar and great leader of the Lord's church present in a very humble way what Jesus Christ meant to him. Doug Sweeney: That's wonderful. Timothy George: So it's a wonderful legacy, and that you were involved with him and with this center named for him at Trinity is a great gift that you bring to us. Now, I want to ask you about your own denomination, because one of the features that you bring to us is that you come from the Lutheran tradition. Now, you're not the first Lutheran to join the faculty of Beeson, we've had a couple before you, but tell us about Doug Sweeney as a Lutheran. What does that mean to you? Doug Sweeney: I am an evangelical Lutheran because I think it's important to combine the best of both traditional Christianity, classical Protestantism on the one hand, and all its theological richness, with the kinds of commitments to evangelism and discipleship, and get your hands dirty, real practical Christian ministry we were just talking about in connection to Dr. Henry, which I think modern evangelicalism helps us to do better than classical Protestantism all by itself helps us to do. So, I don't think people have to be a Lutheran to combine those things, but that's the way they get combined for me. My Lutheranism gives me deep roots in the Protestant Reformation and the Christian tradition and the great confessional heritage of our evangelical Protestant forbears, and my evangelicalism helps me to make sure that my orthodoxy is not a dead orthodoxy, it's a vital, living Christian faith. Doug Sweeney: So, I kind of have a foot in two worlds. When I'm with fellow Lutherans, I'm usually emphasizing things like the importance of personal faith and personal devotion, and sharing your faith with other people, and discipleship. And sometimes when I'm a church history teacher in evangelical contexts like Trinity or Beeson, I major on trying to help root our students in the best theological traditions that are part of our heritage. Timothy George: That's a great combination, and I think you bring many great gifts to us, and one of which is this wider view of the Christian faith, the great tradition as it comes to us through the evangelical heritage. Now, you and I both contributed chapters to a book, we didn't know we would be colleagues at Beeson at the time, but it's called Why We Belong, and was edited by a Beeson alum, Tony Chute, who was your student and my student. Doug Sweeney: That's right. Timothy George: So if you want to know more about Doug Sweeney and why he's an evangelical and a Lutheran, or about me and why I'm an evangelical and a Baptist, check out that book by Tony Chute, Why We Belong. Doug Sweeney: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Timothy George: I think that'd be a good introduction. Now, what interested you in serving as the dean of Beeson Divinity School? Doug Sweeney: Well, I have long been an admirer, a fan of Beeson Divinity School. I've long been an admirer of you, Dr. George, and that's part of the reason I've been an admirer of Beeson Divinity School. I love the way it has been crafted. I love the way the curriculum at Beeson itself helps people combine the best of traditional Protestantism and modern evangelicalism, things I've just been talking about. I love the way in which Beeson emphasizes incarnational life on life, life in community, life together sorts of theological education. I love the faculty/student ratio at Beeson. I love the ways in which so many of our professors want to play a mentoring role in the lives of our students. Doug Sweeney: I love the combination of academic rigor on the one hand, we have a marvelous faculty at Beeson Divinity School, with a devotion to the Lord and His church on the other hand. There are other seminaries that are academically excellent, and there are other seminaries in which Christian piety and practical Christianity are emphasized, but the number of seminaries where both of those things coincide really well are few and far between. And Beeson is one of the schools that really models that combination, that coincidence very well, I think, and modeling that in the context of an intimate community where everybody knows each other and worships the Lord together, and everybody loves the Lord Jesus and the Bible and the church more than they love their own academic sophistication. I mean, that's a... What a marvelous blessing it is to prepare for ministry in a context like that. Timothy George: You may have already just answered this question, but I'm going to ask it again, because the people who listen to this podcast include, among others, prospective students who are thinking about, "What would God have me do in ministry?" If you're speaking directly to them, why should they consider Beeson? Doug Sweeney: Well, they should consider Beeson for all the reasons I just listed, and because if you come to Beeson, I promise you, you will be part of a warm, loving community of people who are here to support you in your pursuit of the Lord's will for your life. You'll be living a life of discipleship, surrounded by a communion of saints who are committed to you because they're committed to following the Lord Jesus together. It's a place, again, that combines top-flight academics, on the one hand, with serious commitment to the Lord and His church and to one another, on the other hand. And it's an enjoyable place to be, it's a fun place to do your seminary training. Timothy George: Now, you will become the voice of the Beeson podcast as of next week. This is my final opportunity to be an interviewer, and yours, maybe, to be an interviewee, because you'll be on this side of the mic. As you think about the ministry of the Beeson podcast and the many, many hundreds of people around the world that it reaches every week, what would be your hopes for this ministry, for this podcast? What would you like people to think about when they think about the Beeson podcast? Doug Sweeney: Well, on the one hand, I'd like them to think about the things they've always thought about. You know, I want to move forward with the podcast in a way that's continuous with what people are used to. I think it's a wonderful ministry already. I'd also like to make it maybe just a little bit more conversational. I love interviews, I love listening to interviews with people, so I'd like to do proportionately maybe a few more interviews. I'd like to shine a light on the really special things the Lord is doing in and through Beeson people: Beeson people in the present, Beeson alums, Beeson students, Beeson faculty. Doug Sweeney: I want to kind of put people in touch with the real history of God's redeeming work in our world, in our time, by sharing with them just a little bit about the ways in which God has been advancing the gospel and building the kingdom through our Beeson family, thereby getting people excited about participating in the work of the Lord, and along the way, getting them excited about participating in the work of the Lord at Beeson. And I've also invited our colleague Kristen Padilla, who sometimes helps us on this podcast, to help me make this a nice conversation and join me on the interviews themselves, so we have some really interesting, edifying, multilateral conversation with Beeson folks. Timothy George: I'm glad you mentioned Kristen. You know, she's the executive producer of this podcast. It doesn't mean she gets paid any more money. In fact, probably she's underpaid for what she does, but she's been a great help to me. Evan Musgraves also is a wonderful helper to me in helping prepare the questions we often ask. And let me not forget... Wave at me, Rob. There you are. Rob Willis is the media technology director for the whole school, and really makes this podcast work. Thank you all for all your help in these episodes that we've done since 2010, and I know you're going to look forward to working with Dr. Doug Sweeney as the new podcast host and the new leader, the new dean of Beeson Divinity School. Timothy George: Now, Doug, one of the things I've admired and known about you for a long time is the fact that you're a person of prayer. You believe in prayer. Doug Sweeney: I do. Timothy George: You pray. Doug Sweeney: Yes. Timothy George: And so I thought this might be a good way to close this podcast, is to have you lead us in a word of prayer, and then I'll say a final closing benediction. Would you do that? Doug Sweeney: Yes. Well, let us pray. O Lord, we give you thanks for condescending to use people like us to do your work in the world. We thank you for the privilege of knowing you, we thank you for the privilege of serving you, and we thank you, Lord, for the privilege of serving you together here at Beeson Divinity School. Lord, we give you thanks for Dr. George and his many, many years of faithful service to you, for the architectural work he did in designing Beeson Divinity School, and for the leadership he's provided for this institution for 31 years. We thank you for this podcast ministry. We thank you for his preaching and teaching ministry, his writing ministry. And we ask, Lord, that you'd bless him in a very special way, and bless his whole family as he moves into the next season of fruitfulness in ministry. Doug Sweeney: Lord, we thank you for all the others who've helped with this podcast, and we pray that you'd continue to use it, continue to bless it for Jesus' sake. We pray, Lord, that by your grace, we would remain faithful to you and to your Word, we'd remain faithful to your gospel above all. Lord, we might as well close up shop if we're not faithful to you and to Holy Scripture, so please help us in that concern of ours and that commitment of ours. Doug Sweeney: Lord, we pray that you'd keep us faithful to the mission of Beeson Divinity School. Give us wisdom, give us insight, give us love for those around us as we continue to serve you here. And Lord, we pray that you'd continue to use the people you bring here and the people who've gone on from here to glorify you, to lift high the cross of Christ, and to proclaim your gospel faithfully until Jesus comes again. For we ask these things in His name and for His sake, amen. Timothy George: And now, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all now and forever, amen. Doug Sweeney: Amen. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson podcast at our website, beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson podcast.