Beeson podcast, Episode 441 Justin Wainscott April 23, 2019 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. Well, today I have the joy of having a conversation with Dr. Justin Wainscot. He is the Pastor of The First Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee. A wonderful Pastor of a wonderful church. Justin has degrees from Union University, Beeson Divinity School, and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In 2015 he was the MD of Distinguished Alumnus Award Winner here at Beeson. A great connection over the years to our school and to your ministry, Justin. Thank you for being on the podcast today. Justin Wainscot: Thank you Dean George. It's a privilege to talk with you. Timothy George: Let's begin by asking you to say a little bit about how you came to Faith in Christ and how you were called by God into the Ministry of his church. Justin Wainscot: Sure. I was raised and nurtured in a Christian family, so I've been in church for as long as I can remember. I heard the Gospel at an early age and came to understand my sin and my need for a savior as a young boy. Trusted Christ early in life. In that regard, my conversion's much more like Timothy's than like Paul's, but no less miraculous. I'm thankful to have been trusting and following the Lord for a long time, and grateful for God's grace to me. Justin Wainscot: In terms of my call to Ministry, that obviously came a little bit later. The Lord used a series of events, primarily in my high school and college years. I had some increased opportunities to teach and preach God's word. Some ministry opportunities through our local fellowship of Christian athletes at our school, and then some opportunities at the church where I grew up. As those opportunities increased, I found myself enjoying the labors of trying to teach and proclaim God's word and others began to see and affirm those gifts in me. Certainly, my church helped affirm that and help me think through that. Then in college that continued to be the case and really help seal what I sensed God was calling me to, internally, had others externally affirmed that as well. Timothy George: While we're talking about personal things. I think you should say something about your wife and your children. You have a beautiful family. Justin Wainscot: Well, thank you so much. Yes. My wife, Anna and I, have been married almost 15 years. We have 15 years this summer. And we have three children, a daughter and two sons, and they are a delight. Timothy George: Wonderful. Now, we could spend this whole podcast talking about reaching because you, Justin, are a wonderful proclaimer of the Gospel. Justin Wainscot: Thank you. Timothy George: But we're actually going to focus this a little differently and that we're calling this podcast The Preacher As Poet, because you're not only a Preacher, you actually are a Poet. You've just published a new volume of poetry, Lost in Wonder, Love and Praise, Hymns and Poems. Just published in 2019 by Whip and Stock. It's a great book. I had the privilege of reading an advanced copy and I wanted to talk to you about this whole idea of a Pastor who loves poems and who writes poems. Timothy George: Now, I'm half of that Justin, I love poems. And I read poems often, but I have never written a poem. It's almost like flying a supersonic jet. The idea that you could even do it. Where did you get interested in poetry? Justin Wainscot: I think the earliest appreciation, while I would not have understood it probably as an appreciation for poetry, started early growing up. I always had a fascination with the lyrics of the songs that I was listening to on the radio or singing at church or whatever it happened to be. I certainly enjoyed the music and the melodies and the tune, but there was something about the words. I enjoyed the way things were said and the imagery that was used, and the rhyming pattern. Although again, at the time, I wouldn't have considered that a love for poetry. I just thought it was something that I enjoyed. Timothy George: What was your major in college Justin? Justin Wainscot: I was a Christian Ethics Major. Timothy George: Okay. Justin Wainscot: I was not an English major or anything like that. Timothy George: You weren't an English major. Justin Wainscot: I loved language and literature, but that's not what I'd studied. Timothy George: Yeah. Justin Wainscot: It really wasn't until I came to Beeson that all of this converged. There were a series of, what I would call both indirect and direct influences, that led to all of my love for and beginning in the world of poetry. Justin Wainscot: I remember when I first got to Beeson, there was a class in the course offerings. I didn't take it, but I remembered seeing it listed as The Pastor, The Poet, and the Kingdom of God. I don't know if you remember that class being offered. I think Calvin Miller taught that. Timothy George: Calvin Miller, I was going to say. Yeah. Justin Wainscot: I remember just the title of that class was very intriguing to me. Then I remember sitting in Hebrew class or Old Testament classes, class on the Psalms, and realizing how much of the Bible, and the Old Testament in particular is poetry. Then hearing professors quote poets or hymns. Hearing you quote hymns, or Dr. Smith quote hymns and sermons. Justin Wainscot: Then beginning to have an interest in, okay, maybe I need to read some of these poets. Some I knew of from school, but some I wanted to learn more about, so I began to read more poetry. Then there was a particular event that really began to move me in this direction. Justin Wainscot: That was, one day in Chapel, sitting there holding the hymn book, singing a hymn, and noticing something I should've noticed years and years ago, but never did. At the very bottom of the page on the hymnal, there are words that say who wrote the text and who wrote the tune. I noticed the person who wrote the text of that hymn was a Pastor and Theologian I recognized from Church History class. I flipped the page and I noticed that with several. And why I never had noticed that I'm not sure, but it was this light bulb that went off that the Lord used to help me begin to see so many of these wonderful songs that we sing and the truths that have been put on our lips and in our hearts were written by Pastors and Preachers. Justin Wainscot: So I began to study more about folks like Watts and Luther and Newton and Westley, and began to see that so many of these hymns flowed out of their Ministry. Out of their pastoring and preaching. Justin Wainscot: The more poetry I read, the more I began to be inspired to try to write something myself. Then certainly the more hymns that I began to read and recognize, that this was a part of Pastoral Ministry. As I learned about meter and things like that, I decided I was going to attempt to write an Easter hymn. I was going to write a resurrection hymn. That was while I was a student there at Beeson. That was the very first hymn that I tried to write, and that's really where it all started and it's something I've been trying to practice ever since. Timothy George: Wonderful. Now, you bring up a good point. I wonder if you've thought about it or could comment on it that, in days gone by, in an earlier generation, or two or three, it was not at all uncommon for Pastors also to be poets and hymn writers. Justin Wainscot: Right. Timothy George: But that has increasingly, it seems to me, become much more rare. Why is that? Justin Wainscot: I don't know that I can say why, but I certainly agree that it has. I think that may have been one of the reasons I was surprised to learn that or didn't think that that would even be something that would be a part of Pastoral Ministry. Justin Wainscot: I think, certainly my generation, we've grown up and that most of the new songs or hymns that are brought before God's people to sing as the church, are written by what we would consider to be songwriters, were musicians, not people necessarily in Pastoral or Preaching Ministry. Justin Wainscot: So for us it may seem odd, but I think for generations of God's people, that was the norm. I think maybe, possibly something has to do with maybe the way we even think about theological education and how Pastors are not as maybe attune to a more general education and thinking about all of life, including things like literature and language and poetry being a part of the ways in which we can use our gifts to bless God's people. Timothy George: Yeah. Justin Wainscot: There may be more other reasons I'm not thinking about. Timothy George: I have a hunch, I don't know if it's exactly right or not, but what might be called the vulgarization of language itself. We've dumbed down the language, elegance, beauty, a sense of proportion in the way we speak and write. That's not as important I think today. Twitter, Facebook, all this social media stuff that we live with day in and day out, and commercials that we hear about how to sell this or sell that, in maybe the most banale way possible. All of this has a collective effect, I think, on our consciousness, and not only in the church, but in society at large. But because we're a part of this world in which we live, it's impacted us in ways that are not altogether positive. Justin Wainscot: I would certainly agree. I think you're exactly right. Timothy George: Now, if you're just speaking to Christians, we'll come back to the Pastors and the hymns, and I want you to read a couple of your poems and hymns before we finish this podcast. If you're just speaking to Christian, believers, disciples, followers of Jesus, why should they read poetry? Justin Wainscot: Well, I would remind them that, and I think I alluded to this a moment ago, but a good portion of the Bible is poetry, so obviously God likes poetry. So we ought to read poetry because God likes it. He gives that to us in his word. That's certainly one reason. Justin Wainscot: Then again, something that we may not readily think about as poetry, but our songs, our collective songs that God's people sing together, are poems. They are lyrical poetry. It's a way for us to, like you said, beautifully, try to capture praise to God. Justin Wainscot: Then, I think this is important because in some ways it goes exactly with what you mentioned a moment ago. We live in a world with social media and even online articles. We are very good at skimming and scanning and we don't read slowly, deeply anymore. Poetry almost forces you to read slowly, forces you to read deeply. It yields its fruit slowly so you have to to ponder, you have to meditate, you have to chew on the images and think on what is being stated. That kind of slow, careful reading only helps us when we go to read God's word. I think reading poetry helps make us better readers in general and certainly better readers of the scriptures. Justin Wainscot: Then I think poetry is unique in that, unlike prose, prose is meant to primarily inform, poetry is meant to inform and affect. It affects us, it moves us. I think that that's something that is important. Justin Wainscot: And I think poetry helps us see old truths in new lights. It gives us a way to see the familiar in an unfamiliar way. I think it helps us be more observant of the world around us. It gives us better eyes to see things with. Timothy George: I wonder if you would read us one of your poems and maybe also one of hymns and say a little bit about them, introduce them to us and how you came to write them. Justin Wainscot: Sure. Timothy George: I think that'd be interesting to hear your poems. Justin Wainscot: I'll be happy to. I'll share a few poems first and then I'll read a couple of hymns. We're having this conversation right in the middle of March and Spring is beginning to show itself outside, and so this is a poem entitled A Mid March Musing. Justin Wainscot: Spring is at the door. The winter almost gone. Flowers bloom once more, and birds take up their song. Landscapes drab and drear, now burst with colors bright. Life from death appears, and beauty from the blight. Still the ancient curse fights hard to hold its sway, yet signs of its reverse point to a better day. Yes each new spring foretells a promise sure and true. The King Creation Hills is making all things new. Timothy George: Great. Justin Wainscot: Then, this is a poem that actually was birthed out of an experience there at Beeson Divinity School. In one of the Spiritual Formation classes, we were reflecting on different themes of the Christian life and one of the assignments was to reflect on the theme of pilgrimage. This prayer that I ... this poetic prayer I wrote as an assignment for that class was begun there and then I finished it sometime later. This is a poem entitled A Pilgrim Prayer. It has inconsistent meter. I did that intentionally because I think our lives are often inconsistent and so it doesn't have the same meter all throughout. This is a poem, poetic prayer called A Pilgrim Prayer. Justin Wainscot: We pray to you three person God, as we on life's journey trod. All the while we look to thee, faithful travelers, help us be. Both our journeys source and in, our broken lives are yours to mend. Because if we pilgrims must be honest, we rarely seem to make much progress. We persevere each trying hour, leaning on thy grace and power. While on this pathway you have made, see us on by loves strong aid. Wrong we are to walk alone, or face this journey on our own. The Church, our burdens, they do share, and keep us from such great despair. On thy word revealed we stand, until we reach that promised land. Let thy spirit be our guide, til in thy presence we abide Timothy George: I see how the shift in meter carries you into that meaning. There's something of the ambiguity of what you're writing there. Justin Wainscot: That was the hope, I appreciate you recognizing that. Timothy George: Yeah. It does. Now let's turn to the hymns. Justin Wainscot: Sure. Timothy George: Because as you've pointed out, so many of our hymns of course our poems,- Justin Wainscot: Right. Timothy George: -which have been set to music and occasionally you have the same person who does the tune and also the words, but usually not. Justin Wainscot: That's right. Timothy George: Those are different. You're a hymn writer. In fact, I think I knew you as a hymn writer before I was aware of you as a Poet. You've written a hymn for us here at Beeson, but you've written a number of hymns. Could you maybe talk about hymn writing and your view of hymns and worship. Justin Wainscot: Sure. Timothy George: And then read us, share with us one of your hymns. Justin Wainscot: Yeah. Most of my hymns are written out of reflection on a particular biblical text or a specific theological theme. I may be preaching on a certain text and the more I'm thinking and meditating on that text a hymn may come out of that. Or I may be preaching through a Psalm and trying to write a metrical Psalm, a poetic arrangement of that Psalm that can be sung. Or there may be a particular theme, the incarnation or the resurrection that usually inspires those. Justin Wainscot: And sometimes the words come quickly and sometimes it takes weeks and months for me to feel like this is ready to be put together and sung. And because I'm not a musician, I'm not one who can write the text and the tune, I usually write my hymns in some standard meter that can then be sung to tunes that we already know and are already familiar with. Justin Wainscot: I'll share one of the hymns I've written that comes out of my Pastoral Ministry. Studying God's word, thinking about our congregation, I was preaching through Galatians and I came across the phrase that Paul uses in Galatians 4:9, where he says, but now that you have come to know God or rather to be known by God. Justin Wainscot: That phrase struck me that it's not just that we have the privilege of knowing God, it's the fact that we have the privilege of being known by God. And just that thought that he knows us began to stick with me. Then I was reading an interview that someone had with Dr. James Houston, who used to teach at Regeant, about his wife who was suffering from dementia. He made mention of the fact that she was fearful that she was going to forget Jesus, and he kept reminding her that what matters is not that she would remember him, but that he would remember her. Justin Wainscot: We had folks who were suffering, Alzheimer's, and had parents who were suffering, Alzheimer's and dementia, and that thought came back to me and putting those two things together. So I shared that story in the Sermon and then we saying this hymn that I wrote out of my reflection. It's called What Joy To Know The One True God. Justin Wainscot: What joy to know the one true God. Jehovah is his name. And know his son who's precious blood thus saved from sin and shame. What joy to know the sovereign God who calms the raging sea. To know he's working for my good and that he cares for me. How great to know this keen divine, enthroned in Majesty, but greater still what joy is mine to know that he knows me. Justin Wainscot: I scarce can fathom that it's true. It's hard to think it's so, that I a center through and through am God's delight to know. But yes, tis true, I'm known on high by God who reigns above. I am the apple of his eye, the object of his love. The King of Kings unrivaled stands, yet he gives thought to me. My name he's graven on his hands and his I'll ever be. So when my doubting fearful soul is tempted to dispar, I'll trust my faithful shepherds hold and rest within his care. I'll trust that he is always good and claim with certainty that though I may forget my God, he'll never forget me. Timothy George: Fabulous. Well, thank you Justin for this conversation and for your commitment to do the Ministry of the Lord, including poetry, and to incorporate that into your own pastoral work. I think it's just wonderful. Justin Wainscot: Your welcome. Timothy George: Dr. Wainscot has written a book called Lost In Wonder, Love and Praise. That's from a Charles Wesley hymn, isn't it? Justin Wainscot: Yes, it is. Timothy George: Lost In Wonder, Love and Praise, Hymns and Poems. I commend it to you. It'll be a blessing if you would get this, buy it and use it in your own life in Ministry. Timothy George: Maybe Justin, could you say a word of encouragement to people, even like me, who've never written poems? Maybe they could give it a try. What would you say? Justin Wainscot: Absolutely. I would say, find a poet that you like, and that you appreciate the way they say things and then practice by mimicking them. It's sort of an apprenticeship. If you poetry sounds a lot like someone else's, that's okay. Keep mimicking them until you develop your own voice, your own style, and then that's kind of the way that that it started for me. I think that's probably the case for most. It's like anything else, you get better the more you do it. Timothy George: Who are one or two of your favorite Poets? Justin Wainscot: I really appreciate, in terms of contemporary poets, Wendell Berry, I enjoy Berry's poetry. Timothy George: Yeah. Justin Wainscot: And then those who are more of days gone by. I love George Herbert. I love Walt Whitman. And certainly then John Newton, Charles Westley, Isaac Watts. Timothy George: Those are great. I'd add one that you didn't mention, but I bet you think he's a great Poet too. My favorite Poet, John Donne. Justin Wainscot: Absolutely. Yes. Timothy George: He was a contemporary of Herbert. Justin Wainscot: I certainly commend his work. Timothy George: Yeah. Justin Wainscot: That's right. Timothy George: Well, this has been a conversation with Dr. Justin Wainscot. He is the Pastor of The First Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee. He holds degrees from Union University, Beeson Divinity School, and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. A wonderful Pastor, and as we've seen from the podcast today, also a wonderful Poet and hymn writer. God bless you, Justin, in your ministry and your work for Christ. Justin Wainscot: Thank you Dean George. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson podcast at our website beesondivinty.com. Announcer: Beeson Divinity School is an Interdenominational Evangelical Divinity School training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson podcast.