Beeson podcast, Episode 430 Dr. Matt Pinson February 5, 2019 https://www.beesondivinity.com/podcast/2019/Free-Will-Baptist Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. Well, today I have the privilege of having a conversation with Dr. J. Matthew Pinson. Dr. Pinson is the president of Welch College in Nashville, Tennessee. He's a learned scholar, written a number of books and we're going to talk about some of his scholarship and some of his interests today. He's been a friend of mine at Beeson Divinity School for a long time. Matthew, tell us about yourself. A little bit your background, how you came to faith in Christ. Matthew Pinson: Well, I was raised in a Christian home and I came to faith as a child. I don't exactly know when that was, but I was raised by godly parents and came to faith in Christ. Timothy George: You know who else doesn't know when they became a Christian was Billy Graham's wife, Ruth. Ruth Bell Graham, she said she couldn't remember a time when she did not know Jesus and love Jesus. Matthew Pinson: Yes, that's much like me. I was brought up in a home like that. We were in church and I received the gospel throughout my entire childhood. Timothy George: Where is your home? Matthew Pinson: I'm from Pensacola, Florida down on the sunny gulf coast. Timothy George: Okay. All right. Now you're in Nashville, Tennessee and you're the president of Welch College, which is an institution of higher education in the freewill Baptist tradition. Tell us about the freewill Baptist movement. Matthew Pinson: Well, the freewill Baptists came from the English general Baptists which originated in the 17th century in London. The first Baptist, as you know, was Thomas Helwys and he's our founding father. One of the great theologians was Thomas Grantham. Several of those English General Baptists came over to the American colonies in the 1600s. Many of our ancestors came from North Carolina where there was a man named Benjamin Laker, who was a signatory of the 1663 version of the Old General Baptist Standard Confession, which was delivered to King Charles II. Benjamin Laker is sort of our founding father. Modern day freewill Baptists come from that stream. Most of us. Some other groups have merged in, but most of the freewill Baptists come from that stream and essentially our English General Baptists who transplanted to the American colonies. Timothy George: Now, you mentioned Thomas Grantham. You've done some scholarly work on him. A very important figure. He ought to be better known than he is, I think, among Baptists today. You've done some great work on Thomas Grantham. Tell us a little bit about him and what his theology was about, what he was trying to do? Matthew Pinson: Thomas Grantham was a very learned Baptist theology teacher and preacher. Of course, they didn't have organized schools because the established church wouldn't allow them to back in the 17th century. Grantham was a very learned man and in a number of languages. He was self-taught. He was a bi-vocational minister. He was a farmer and a tailor who learned a lot about God's word and about theology and was the most respected General Baptist leader in the General Baptist general assembly in the 17th century. He wrote a book called Christianismus Primitivu or Primitive Christianity, which was a wide ranging systematic theology book that I would suppose is the largest tomb of systematic theology from any Baptist in the 17th century. Timothy George: One word that describes the Baptist movement in general is vociferous. I've used that word a lot. It means splitting off in all different kinds of directions. One of the things I have always liked about Thomas Grantham is he was a person of deep conviction, but there was a kind of spirit about him, a tenor, a tone in his writings that reached out to other believers. Matthew Pinson: Yes. In fact, that's one of the things that we like to foster at Welch. Grantham was an Arminian, he was a Baptist, he was very strong in his convictions and his confessional commitments. Yet, he was very ironic in the way that he argued for those convictions. He had a lot of friends. He didn't allow his conservative and his very particular convictions, theologically and confessionally to determine who he hung around with. He had Anglicans that would say good things about it. John Bunyan was a friend. He had a lot of particular Baptists at his five point Calvinist Baptists who would endorse his books. He was very ironic and charitable in the way he went about polemics in the church. Timothy George: I see a little Grantham in you. Matthew Pinson: Well, thank you. Timothy George: You're a friend to a person like me and that's remarkable. Matthew Pinson: Well, you're easy to be a friend of, Dr. George. Timothy George: Well, we have our differences. I want to talk to you about you worked on Arminianism. You've talked about the general Baptist tradition off which the free-will Baptist movement is a somewhat later expression. They're called general because of the idea of general atonement, the idea that Christ died indiscriminately for all persons. That was a Helwys idea. It was a Grantham idea. That's often associated with Arminianism. The word Arminianism has take on different kinds of connotations throughout history. It isn't simply theological. You openly embrace Arminian. In fact, you have a book, Arminian and Baptist. It's a wonderful book. Say a little bit about Arminianism as you experience it. As you see it lived out in the free-will Baptist movement. How we ought to think about Arminianism. Matthew Pinson: Well, Arminianism is a commitment to a libertarian freedom understanding of human agency. God gives people basic creaturely freedom. That means that they can do things that they might have otherwise chosen differently to do. That's maybe why we're called free-will Baptists. It's not because we believe that everybody has a natural ability to seek after God or to desire the things of God. We believe that everyone is dead and trespasses in sins and everyone needs the work of the spirit convicting and drawing him or her to faith. Yet, we believe that somehow, mysteriously the holy spirit is doing that in the world and across humanity, because Christ died for everyone and he wants everyone to be saved and so he's doing that. A lot of people have the misconception that our Arminianism exalts the love of God over the holiness of God and that Arminianism is more man-centered then it is centered on God and His glory and His justice. One of the things that we're doing down at Welch is fostering a movement that really it dates all the way back to Helwys and Grantham and of course Arminius. Matthew Pinson: It's a little bit different from most Arminianism today. Of course, a lot of Arminianism today is really more [fin-e-ism 00:07:37]. It's more Charlies Finian. It's even a little bit more works-righteousness oriented and legalistic than even Wesley would have been. Our movement is different from Wesleyanism. Our approach to theology is much more comfortable with the reforms tradition. As Baptist understand that tradition. We're much more comfortable with the way that reformed people see what it means to be a person who is a Christian. What does it mean to be saved. I would say that our difference with reformed theology or with Calvinism, if you will, is more about how you get to be saved, how you come into a state of grace. What it means to be in a state of grace, we are joyfully in line with the reform tradition on what it means to be in a state of grace and what it means to be saved and what it means to be justified, what that means in the life of the church. The five solaes of the reformation are things that we exalt in and we love. Matthew Pinson: I recently was telling one of my students that when you look at Arminius he is living in the 16th century, in early 17th century world in Dutch Calvinism and the Dutch reformed movement. That is a lot broader in terms of the way they define reform. The reformed have the three forms of unity. The Belgic Confession of faiths, the Heidelberg Catechism, and the Canons of Dort. Well, the Canons of Dort come several decades after the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism. They're, as you know, a lot stronger in their affirmation of pre-destination and what we might call determinism, a soft compatible determinism maybe. They're a lot stronger in their soteriological Calvinism, a lot stronger in their approach to predestination and to God's foreordination of all things and so forth. Yet, when you go back to the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism you could have all these pastors and lay people and political leaders who were proud members of reformed churches who proudly signed their names to the Belgic Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Catechism. Which Arminius again and again handed out copies of and loved and subscribed to and bragged on. Matthew Pinson: Yet, they were not predestinarians in the sense that say Calvin was or Beza and the sense that would become instantiated in the Canons of Dort. A funny way I put it, in the late 16th century, in the early 17th century you had a young wrestles and reformed movement on the continent in the reformed churches. I think a harder stronger Calvinism was always probably the main stream speculative theology of the reformed movement on the continent. Timothy George: There was a time, you're saying, there was a greater fraternity. Matthew Pinson: Sure. Timothy George: Arminius himself was ordained in Geneva on the Beza ministry. They were on speaking terms. Matthew Pinson: They were and the interesting thing about it is that Arminius saw a real beauty in reformed theology. It wasn't just the soteriology. A lot of times today when we think of reformed theology we think of the five points of Calvinism. Of course, my friend Carl Truman would say, "That's not what reformed theology is. He would say that neither you or I are reformed. Timothy George: True. Matthew Pinson: They're interpreting it even ecclesiology in terms of Plato Baptist. Timothy George: And Presbyterian Church Order, which neither you nor I accept. Matthew Pinson: The interesting thing is that reformed theology in the 16th century is broader. Arminius can say, "I love the kingdom covenantal eschatology of the reformed movement." He can say, "I believe that man is totally depraved and that depravity has a noetic effect, an effect on his reasoning capabilities. I believe that we're so sinful that we can't even determine how to order and structure the church. We need all sufficient scripture to help us." There are a lot of these non-salvational [inaudible 00:12:10] and non-soteriological oriented parts of reformed theology that Arminius just naturally loved and extolled. We're like that in our approach. Timothy George: Arminius died in the year 1609. The following year was the Remonstrance. For the next 10 years, really, throughout the Dutch Republic there was this raging controversy that ended up at the senate of Dort in 1618, 1619. I've often wondered, historians shouldn't ask what if questions, but I've often wondered what if Arminius had lived for 10 more years. Would that controversy have been so polarized as it became? I don't know. We can't answer that question, but I think he did embody that body, that broader spirit that you've been talking about. Matthew Pinson: Yes, it's hard to do alternative history like you say, but one wonders if with Arminius's ironic spirit, if things of the senate of Dort may have ended up a little bit broader in terms of the way they framed or formed theology and who was in and who was out. Timothy George: I'm going to ask you about another one of your books. It's a fascinating book. I've recommended this book at lot of people because it's one of the few books I know that deal with this particular issue. It's called The Washing of the Saints Feet. Now, will you talk about feet washing and why that is an important part of the free-will tradition and what you're trying to do in that book. Matthew Pinson: Yes, well sometimes in the churches, especially down in the south where Southern Baptists are ubiquitous, free-will Baptists will get asked, "What makes y'all different from us Southern Baptists?" Often people will say, "Well, FW. Free will and feet washing." It's a little hand term that some people use. In some ways, when you look at the broad Baptist, once saved always saved, sort of tradition that would be the two main things that distinguish the free-will Baptists from most Baptists. Our approach to Arminianism and of course the right of the washing of the saints feet. I grew up washing the saints feet. I grew up with it as a ritual that we would observe along with the Eucharist. It was interesting I met my wife at Yale. She grew up as a member of the United Church of Christ. When I met her she had the United Church of Christ worship book. It's a very mainline Protestant denomination. Matthew Pinson: It's got this detailed right of washing of the saints feet. I began to look and it was interesting how many of the mainline Protestants at Yale either had washed feet, or when I would talk about they would say, "Oh, cool." Whereas some of my Evangelical compatriots, they weren't as impressed with it. If you go back to early Baptists a lot of Baptists washed feet. Some of the strongest Calvinist Baptists in the 19th century were strong on the washing of the saints feet. I think Dag put an end to that. Timothy George: Yeah, right. Matthew Pinson: There was a growing emphasis on feet washing in the 19th century among a confessional Calvinist in the Baptist tradition. Dag really saw it as a difficulty. He wrote some things that discouraged Souther Baptists from engaging in this ritual. We actually believe it is an ordinance of the gospel that Jesus has appointed or instituted for his church and as a means of grace for his people. Timothy George: When you read John 13 it sure seems that way doesn't it? Matthew Pinson: It does. Timothy George: Jesus gives pretty clear instructions about that. It has been a part of the church's tradition in different ways. The Pope in Rome on Monday-Thursday washes the feet of 12 beggars who have been chosen as representative of the people of Rome. I've participated in feet washing myself at the Church of Brethren. It's another church for which it's a very holy and sacred ordinance. Would you place feet washing on the level of baptism and the Lord's supper as something Jesus commanded us to do and we ought to do? Matthew Pinson: That's what we believe and we have historically done that all the way back to the 17th century. We're a lot like anti-Baptists. You mentioned the Brethren. They are an anti-Baptists group. When you go back to the Waterlanders, John Smith and Thomas Helwys were exiled from England in the first decade of the 17th century. They began to maintain fellowship with the Waterlander Mennonites. Of course, John Smith became a Mennonite. Helwys couldn't hack it and so he went back to England and said, "I'm not becoming a Mennonite. One of the things they got from the Mennonites was this emphasis on feet washing. I believe that, that was one of the things that the anti-Baptists tradition did influence the early Baptist. As I said many Calvinist Baptists also practice this. Yeah, I think we would say that it isn't really clear. How do you begin to say which of God's ordinances are more important and less important. Matthew Pinson: I don't know that Jesus or the apostles really get into that issue. We tend to define ordinance more like it's defined in the Westminster Confession of Faith, or maybe it's the Westminster Shorter Catechism. It says what are the outward and ordinary means of grace? It says the word, sacraments and prayer together with all of the ordinances Christ has appointed. Something of that nature. I think that's a paraphrase. We would tend to view ordinances much in that older Puritan way. That's the way Baptists tended to use ordinance in that earlier period, as something God ordains as a means of grace for his people. Matthew Pinson: The Puritans would talk about the ordinance of Psalms singing and the ordinance of alms giving and the ordinance of the ministry of the word, the preaching of the word. It's hard to start categorizing those things. Is singing of songs hymns and spiritual songs a less important ordinance than say preaching or is the ordinance of alms giving ... I think we can start talking about what needs to be more central in the life of the church or the worship of the church. It's debatable. It's hard to see in scripture a gradation of the importance of the ritual practices that God has appointed. Timothy George: Mm-hmm (affirmative). This is done usually, you mentioned in terms of the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper. Matthew Pinson: Yes, that's right. Timothy George: Take us through a service of feet washing and with the Eucharist and a free-will Baptist church. What would we see? How would we experience that? Matthew Pinson: In most free-will Baptist church's you're going to have a service with the Lord's Supper. Most of the congregations I have been involved in it is much more of a sacred reverence feel than you have in a lot of evangelical churches when it comes to the Lord's supper. It's not just like a passing of the offering plate. It's a hallowed, very sacred, reverent kind of feel. A lot of times that transcends worship style. There's this sense of real awe and wonder and transcendence in that service. After that service then the women will usually go to one room and the men will go to another room or go to one side of the sanctuary or another side. If it's a larger church they will have several gatherings. There will simply be a basin of water and a towel. Some of the more traditional churches, much like the Mennonites have these long towels that they will actually gird themselves with and they'll wrap them around their waists. Matthew Pinson: Then one individual will kneel and take the basin and remove the other persons socks and shoes and will wash his or her feet. Then most of the time the person whose feet you washed will wash your feet. It's usually a very hallowed time, a reverent time. Often song will break out. Just about every service of the washing of the saints feet that I have been involved in spontaneous hymn singing will break out in the service many times you see real reconciliation between brothers and sisters who may have experienced some tension between them. It can be a very beautiful community building ritual. Timothy George: My guest today on the Beeson podcast has been Dr. J. Matthew Pinson. He is the president of Welch College in Nashville, Tennessee. That's a wonderful school affiliated with the free-will Baptist Association of Churches. He's a scholar of this movement and of theology itself. Holds degrees from University of West Florida, Yale University and Florida State University. Also, a doctorate in higher education leadership from Vanderbilt University. He's a well educated person, but also a person of great faith and a leader in the Lord's church. He's a friend of mine and I'm honored to know him and to learn from him. We've been talking today in particular about his two books. Arminian and Baptist and also another wonderful book which I was pleased to recommend, The Washing of the Saints Feet. Thank you so much for this conversation Matt. Matthew Pinson: Thank you Dr. George. It sure has been a pleasure. 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