Beeson Podcast, Episode 395
Kristen Padilla
June 5, 2018

Announcer:	Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George.

Timothy George:	Welcome to today's Beeson podcast. Today I have the pleasure of talking to somebody who is here every single time we do the Beeson podcast. She's the executive producer of the Beeson podcast. Her name is Kristen Padilla. She is married to Dr. Oswaldo Padilla, a professor of New Testament here at Beeson, and they are the parents of a beautiful son named Philip. Today we're talking about a new book Kristen Padilla has just published with Zondervan, out this month, entitled, Now That I'm Called: A Guide for Women Discerning a Call to Ministry. Kristen, welcome to the Beeson podcast.

Kristen Padilla:	Thank you, Dr. George. It's strange to be on this side of the microphone.

Timothy George:	You've written a very important book, but before we get to your book, I wish you would introduce yourself a little bit more to our listeners. They know about the podcast, and all the good things that we do come through the filter of your leadership, but tell us about yourself, your own story. I know you're from Texas. You went to Ouachita Baptist University, you're a graduate of Beeson Divinity School, but fill in the blanks. Who is Kristen Padilla?

Kristen Padilla:	I was born to strong Christian parents. My dad is a Southern Baptist pastor. I spent my first four years at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where my dad was working on a degree, and then we moved to east Texas, later to Arkansas. As you said, I did end up at Ouachita and Baptist University. Early on in my life, I felt a call, but I didn't really know what it was at the time. I just loved the church. I grew up in the church. I remember playing in the baptistery as a pastor's daughter, being there all during the week, and just really loved the church, and wanted to serve the Lord the best way a preacher's daughter knew how, and that was to preach. I remember crying to my parents when I was very young, perhaps around the age of eight or nine, that why didn't God make me a boy so I could be a preacher? The only people I saw in ministry in my context were men, and the only two women I know of were Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong, but they were both dead.

Timothy George:	In case some of our listeners haven't heard those names, it's possible, tell us who Annie Armstrong and Lottie Moon were.

Kristen Padilla:	They were both missionaries. Lottie Moon was a missionary in China, and Annie Armstrong was a missionary here in the States, and-

Timothy George:	They're kind of like heroes, heroines of the mission movement for particularly Southern Baptists, right?

Kristen Padilla:	Yes, yes, and we always remembered them at special times of the year. We remembered Lottie Moon at Christmas. We would take up an offering in her name, and then we would remember Annie Armstrong at Easter, and also take up an offering for missions in her name. I was impressed by these women, but as I said, they were dead, so they were not a living testimony to me of a woman in ministry. I still felt the Lord's leading and prompting over the years, and finally when I was 15, my mom said to me, "Kristen, if you just surrender to the Lord, if you're feeling called to ministry, the Lord will work that out. You just need to obey Him, in whatever way that will look like in your life." I did, and at first I thought that meant I was going to be a pastor's wife, because my mom was a pastor's wife, and then other women told me, "Well, perhaps you're going to be the next Beth Moore." At that point, then those were the two female role models in my life, but that's how I ended up at Ouachita Baptist, pursuing the call to ministry, and then after Ouachita, ended up at Beeson Divinity School.

Timothy George:	I know a couple of people have had a good influence on you, and encouragement to you. One was a pastor with whom you worked in San Antonio for a while. You were a member of the staff of the First Baptist Church there, and then there was a female professor at Ouachita, Dr. Barbara Pemberton. Tell us just a little bit about these two people, and what they meant to you.

Kristen Padilla:	Yes, so the summer before my senior year of college at Ouachita, I began to think about seminary, and I was interning at First Baptist Church San Antonio, where my grandparents are members. The pastor is a wonderful person, and he suggested that I look at Beeson Divinity School. I had never heard of Beeson, so he was the first one to tell me about this place, and then at Ouachita, as you said, Dr. Pemberton was the, was a professor in the Christian studies department. She was the only female professor, and she was a great, and still is, a wonderful encouragement to me. What she did for me was to show me that there were many opportunities for ministry besides being a wife of a pastor, that I did not have to be a wife of a pastor to do ministry as a woman, and so I am who I am in large part because of her influence as a college student.

Timothy George:	The book is called Now that I'm Called. That word “called,” you could almost put in quotation marks, because it's used in various ways, even in the Bible. One meaning of calling is the same as the word “election.” We're called, our election in calling is referred to the fact that we're called to know God, to follow Jesus Christ. It's referring to our salvation, but it also is used in a more particular way, and how do you understand ”called” in the title of your book, Now that I'm Called?

Kristen Padilla:	I am using it in the way to speak of vocational calling, a vocational call to ministry, but as I say in my introduction, as you just said, that the Bible is most concerned about our call as believers, as followers of Jesus Christ. That is prominent in Scripture, but there is another use and sense of that word calling. Often time in Scripture, other words are used instead of the word calling, but to mean the same thing, like sending, or go, or appoint, so I am focused on a particular kind of call, and that is a call that we could sum up in Ephesians 4, a call to “equip the saints for the work of ministry.” Those who are called to train up the people of God for their ministry, for we all are called to ministry as Christians.

Timothy George:	This is what you mean by vocational ministry, right?

Kristen Padilla:	Yes. I am talking about those who are going to be in a position of authority in the church to communicate God's Word, to equip all God's people for the work of ministry. 

Timothy George:	I want to get to this question about women in particular because your book is not exclusively for women. I've read it, and I was blessed by it.

Kristen Padilla:	Thank you.

Timothy George:	It's subtitled “A Guide for Women Discerning A Call for Ministry,” so that's your target audience, women who may be feeling, as you did as a teenage girl in Texas, God speaking to you in a special way, and one thing I like about your approach, I wish you'd say a little bit about this for our listeners. There are two camps, so to say, in the evangelical world, on this question of women in ministry. One is called complementarian. Another is called egalitarian. Neither of those words is found in the Bible to my knowledge, exactly like that. Say what those words mean, and how you, in a way, don't want to be polarized in either camp. That's what's in a way unique about your book.

Kristen Padilla:	Thank you. Yes, often when we talk about women in ministry, it is framed around the debate of what women can and cannot do. While each term will encompass more than what I'm going to say right now, just to be succinct, complementarianism in relation to its views of what women can and cannot do in ministry is going to see that as more restrictive. There are things that women, although they complement men, and complementarians would say that they are in equal standing as men before the Lord, and they're made equal in God's image, that the ordering of creation and of man and woman means that there are some things that women cannot do in ministry. Egalitarians, on the other hand, emphasize more equality that is more than just you're standing before the Lord, but also in roles that anything a man can do, so can a woman. I know I'm giving a generalization, but that's pretty much what both sides stand for, so as ... Before I wrote the book, I purposely chose not to write from the perspective of either camp. 
	I wanted to invite all women to the table, no matter which tradition they were in. I did not want to frame the book around the debate. I believe that most women are caught in the middle, and are often wounded, and that women just want to serve the Lord. They want to know if they can serve the Lord, and so whether it's a woman who's in a complementarian tradition, or in an egalitarian tradition, I hope what they will find in my book is that God's plan has always involved women, and that there is a place for women in ministry. It may look differently, depending on your context, but there is a place, and so one just tangible way that I tried to avoid the debate is that I do not address women's roles or ordination. When it comes to, well, what will this look like in my tradition, I say, "Work it out with your pastor, with your mentors, as you read Scripture," so we focus more on the calling aspect and less on the roles aspect in the book.

Timothy George:	That's what I like about you. Your book sounds a little bit like Beeson Divinity School, in that we don't take an advocacy position on these two positions that are out there in the Christian world. We have professors, and we have students on both sides of those issues. We talk about them. We sometimes have even public discussions about them. We don't sweep it under the rug, but we say, "This should not be a test of fellowship within our community," and that makes us different from other kinds of school. There are seminaries that are strictly complementarian. You couldn't be on the faculty if you didn't, and likewise, strictly egalitarian. You couldn't be on their faculty if you didn't take that ... We have a both and approach. We're not the only school like that. There are a number of others as well, and you seem to ... I guess the word is tension. There's a tension in your treatment of this issue which you find somehow reflected in the scriptures themselves. Is that right?

Kristen Padilla:	That's correct. I say in the book that we don't want to write off the difficult passages of scripture to make us feel better, but at the same time, we don't want to create a canon within a canon, elevating one text above the other, so I'm trying to help the women, in a gentle way, to enter into the tension of scripture, where on the one hand, you find women prophesying, very involved in the work of ministry, and then on the other hand, you have difficult texts like First Timothy 2. I want us to be faithful to Scripture as both complementarians and egalitarians do. We want to be faithful to the text, but I also want them to wrestle with the text, partly because they're going to wrestle with these questions if they haven't already. I want them to be prepared for that wrestling now, so that when they encounter these questions, and they encounter these texts later, that they'll be able to stand on a firmer footing. 

Timothy George:	Yeah, so let me pose the question this way. If you're a complementarian woman, and we shouldn't think all complementarians are men, of course. There are many complementarian women, even women theologians who are complementarian, and likewise egalitarians, there's both/and, if you're a complementarian, what can this book help you with? How can it help you understand this issue better?

Kristen Padilla:	For many women that I've encountered, and I grew up in complementarian traditions in churches, but for some women in certain complementarian traditions, they might feel that there's no place for them in ministry. I really hope that they feel encouraged where they may not feel encouraged. I also hope that they will see that even their ministry is restricted to women and children, that is a valuable ministry, that women and children are God's sheep. They are made in God's image, and delivering God's Word for them is just as important as it is to deliver it to men. I want them to see value in any sector of ministry that they are allowed to do. I also want them to wrestle with the idea that the Spirit gives gifts that are not divided along gender lines, and this is something that Anne Bowman talks about in her piece in the book Two Views on Women in Ministry, the first edition that I have, published by Zondervan. She's a complementarian, and she talks about the use of gifts. You do not have to have an office or even a pulpit to practice these gifts.

Timothy George:	Let me flip the question around. If you're egalitarian, what do you have to say to people who have that conviction?

Kristen Padilla:	Yes, so there are a couple of times in the book where my egalitarian readers might feel like I'm being, pushing the brakes a little bit, and what do I mean? I talk about positively submission, I talk about put it laying down our rights, that we might be in context where to be a senior pastor would prohibit the advancement of the gospel, specifically maybe some Muslim context. I talk about that we should never neglect the ministry of the family or the home for the sake of ministry, so really what I'm putting forward in the book is the advancement of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I'm asking the readers to examine their calls and what ministries that they're going to do within that framework. Will this advance the gospel? Or will it hinder the gospel? And so I hope that that's something that my egalitarian readers can take away and wrestle with.

Timothy George:	You know what? I bet you, I bet you not everybody listening to this podcast is going to agree with everything you've said, because you're entering into a discussion here that's very polemical often, very heated, and you're trying to weave a kind of position that takes into consideration how your views on women in ministry, and your response to it, affects the whole message of the gospel in our time, in our culture today. That's a brave thing to do. That's a kind of courageous, gutsy thing to do. You're not going to please everybody, but of course you want to please the Lord, and you want to be faithful to Scripture. You keep coming back to that, again, and again, in your book. Your book is saturated with the Bible, and so one way to understand your book, it's a kind of biblical theology of calling for ministry, and you're constantly referring to that. You're a theologian, and so talk about Christology. How does that affect one's understanding of calling, or misology?

Kristen Padilla:	Yeah, so in chapter two, I present a concept that is not new to me, but Jesus Christ, I say, is the first called one. What do I mean? God called Himself in Jesus Christ long before He created the world. It's what we find in Paul's letters, that before the creation of the world, Christ existed. We find it in John, John 1, and so God called Himself the incarnation, the cross, the resurrection, all of that was in the mind of God before He even created. In light of that, as we read the Old Testament, and we read of prophets, and priests, and kings, and shepherds, and then we get to Christ, we see that these roles that people had in the Old Testament are perfectly fulfilled in Jesus Christ. He is the perfect priest, but He's also the sacrifice. He's the perfect king, but He's also a servant. He is the perfect prophet. He's also the very Word of God, and then as we look in the New Testament, after Jesus has ascended, we see that He is still in the business of raising up caretakers of His people, who are now pointing back to Jesus Christ. Those in the Old Testament are pointing to Jesus Christ, those ministers, shepherds, prophets are pointing back to Jesus Christ. If you've ever watched the movie or read the book “Lord of the Rings” by Tolkien, you'll remember that there is a realm called Gondor, in which, when the king was absent, there was a steward who served in his place, but never could sit at the rightful place of the king. That's how I like to see us as ministers. We are stewards of the gospel, of the mysteries of Jesus Christ. We're not sitting in the place of the king, Jesus Christ, but we are awaiting His return. We're preparing the people for Jesus Christ, and so everything that we do, how we view our callings, should be Christ-centered, and Christ-focused. Knowing that Jesus Christ came the furthest to fulfill the plan and mission of God, that gives me great encouragement that He will never call me to a place or as far as He called Himself, or as He went Himself, and He is with us in our ministries, and in our calls. That brings me great encouragement as a believer and minister of Jesus Christ.

Timothy George:	Yeah. Hebrews says, "Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,” the one who's gone before us, who leads the way. We follow His example. Paul House is one of your teachers here at Beeson. He was when you were a student, and he said this about your new book: “Kristen Padilla discusses this important issue in the correct manner from the Bible, with an emphasis on the Bible's original languages and context, and a heart for ministry rather than controversy. This volume is much needed as conservative, moderate, and liberal Christians all seem confused about the nature and importance of rigorous theological training for women who teach the Bible in home, churches, and academic settings.” That is a good endorsement.

Kristen Padilla:	It's very kind.

Timothy George:	From Dr. House, and I think it's right on target. Let me ask you, one of the chapters in your book, I think it's chapter seven, about theological education, is actually being published as a separate article in “Christianity Today.” They thought so well of it, they wanted to make a separate article out of it. Can you kind of review for us what you have to say about women and theological education in particular?

Kristen Padilla:	Sure. I wrote the book out of two beliefs, that God calls women to ministry, and the church of Jesus Christ needs theologically trained, God-called women in ministry. I think this is a great need, and going back to a vision of ministry that I have is that every person in the church is a person, a sheep of Jesus Christ. Therefore, any woman who is speaking authoritatively about the living God and His Word, doing soul care, whether it's of children, youth, women, or all the church, that that woman should be trained, because it's serious business. We should hear the warning of James 3:1 reverberating in our ears, that not many of us should be teachers. For me personally, my conviction to come to seminary really began with Second Timothy 3:14-16, to continue in what you have learned. Really, the purpose of theological education is to prepare men and women for gospel ministry by giving them the tools to faithfully study, interpret, apply, and preach God's Word within the context of church history and theology. I believe that this is a training that is needed of any minister of the gospel.

Timothy George:	Kristen, I wonder if you could say what advice you would give to a woman who feels a general call to ministry, but doesn't maybe have the sense of a specific call that you talk about here. How would you address a person like that?

Kristen Padilla:	Sure, well, the first answer might be a little obvious, but I would say praying. I think prayer is of central importance. God is a faithful Father. He loves us, and I believe our calls begin and end and belong to God, and so it takes the pressure off of us to have to manufacture them, or to fulfill them, and so I would say pray, but also pray within community. I think discerning your calls is best done within the church community. Ask people to surround you, to pray with you, to peer into your life, maybe call out gifts that they see. Some churches put together discernment committees, but if your church doesn't do that, you could talk to your pastor or another church leader, and ask if they would help you put together a group of fellow believers to walk alongside you through this process, and I would continue to involve yourself into the work of ministry within the church, as you volunteer your time, God will show you the gifts that He has given you, the burdens He has laid on your heart, the passions. Those things will be clear, but I would say keep on the journey. Calling like our Christian lives is a journey, but God is faithful. A prayer that I have prayed for myself, that I continue to go back to is Psalm 138, “the Lord will fulfill His purpose for me. Your steadfast love, O Lord, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands,” so I think that that's a good prayer that we can all pray as we discern our calls to ministry.

Timothy George:	Wonderful, and so your book is really across denominations in a way, isn't it? Michael Bird, who's a Anglican theologian at, teaches at Ridley Hall in Melbourne, Australia, has written a wonderful comment about your book, says, "This is the book, the exact book," he says, "That I've been waiting all this time to give to my female students," so it's caught that kind of response. It's a wonderful read. It's well-written, well-researched. It's challenging. You raise important questions. You admit there's some answers you don't have completely. You're still searching yourself, so it's written with a sense of humility and discernment, seeking the will of the Lord, living in the tension that is there within the text, and in our own lives. Now That I'm Called: A Guide for Women Discerning a Call to Ministry. It's written by Kristen Padilla. She is the marketing and communications coordinator for Beeson Divinity School. She edits our Beeson Magazine. She's written for a number of other publications, including Credo Magazine, The Gospel Coalition, the Well and so forth. This is your first book, though, right?

Kristen Padilla:	It is.

Timothy George:	I bet it's not your last.

Kristen Padilla:	Thank you.

Timothy George:	Thank you for writing this book, and for sharing with us on the podcast today about its mission, and its purpose, and we commend it strongly. Kristen Padilla, Now That I'm Called. 

Announcer:	You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast, with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website, beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school, training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson Podcast.