Beeson Podcast, Episode 373 https://www.beesondivinity.com/podcast/2018/looking-back-three-graduates-reflect-on-their-time-at-Beeson-Divinity-School Tony Chute, Jeff Mooney, Todd Bates January 2, 2018 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast, where we're coming to you today from Providence, Rhode Island, where there is the annual meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society. This is a gathering of several thousand scholars, all of the biblical, theological disciplines come together to hear papers, to make presentations and so we're here. I'm taking advantage of this because I have with me three friends, all of whom have a special connection to Beeson Divinity School, all of whom are scholars in their own right and all of whom teach now at the same university. That's kind of unusual. I'm going to ask each one of them to introduce themselves and to say a little bit more about them. Tony Chute: I'm Tony Chute, and I'm at California Baptist University. I teach church history. I'm associate dean of the School of Christian Ministries. Jeff Mooney: I am Jeff Mooney. I teach at California Baptist University, and I teach Old Testament interpretation and theology. Todd Bates: And I'm Todd Bates and I teach at California Baptist University and teach philosophy and apologetics. Timothy George: Now I just want to take the moment to say California Baptist University is a beautiful place. I've been there a couple of times. Great campus. Great faculty. Wonderful students, some of whom have trickled all the way from California to Alabama. Tony Chute: That's right. Timothy George: They've become students at Beeson Divinity School. We love our CBU students as we call them, and you guys have been their teachers, their mentors in many ways, but I want to talk about how you got to know each other and all three of you are graduates of Beeson Divinity School. How did that happen? Tony Chute: Well, Todd was there first. We'll start with Todd. You were the first student of the four that were there. Todd Bates: Right. Yes. So I showed up on campus and actually took classes during the summer and fell in love with the place immediately. Timothy George: Now you graduated in 1995. Todd Bates: 1995. Yes, indeed. And then Tony and I met, I believe in either a Baptist distinctives class or a church history class. Tony Chute: Right. Todd Bates: And just really developed a good friendship from the get-go. Tony Chute: So the three of us were friends back then. We knew each other. Timothy George: You knew each other when you were at Beeson. Tony Chute: Right. Jeff Mooney: I think I took Hebrew with Tony and I think I actually might have taken an apologetics class with Todd. Todd Bates: Indeed. Jeff Mooney: With Alan Carter. It was my very first semester. I was mortified, because my past was not stellar with regard to being a student. So I was terrified of being in class again. Tony Chute: I enjoy telling people I knew Jeff Mooney before he knew Hebrew. And he retorts by saying, "And Tony still doesn't." Jeff Mooney: His Bible's in great shape. Really great shape. Timothy George: So now that was an interesting time in the history of Beeson, because I think our Chapel must have been brand new. We dedicated it in 1995, so just when you were coming, Todd. It was a different and exciting time in the life of the school. Jeff Mooney: I was a part of the dedication process. I was vice president of the student body and Greg Morrison was president. So we had a big hand in just being able to have access to all of those dedication ceremonies throughout the week. It was fantastic. It was absolutely fantastic. Tony Chute: If I could say this with affection towards the students who are at Beeson now, the three of us went to Beeson for the right reason. We went for the faculty and we made the trek across campus to the building. So we inherited the beauty, but we had the faculty. Now you have the faculty and the beauty. Timothy George: That's very well put, Tony. Now I want to focus on your experience at Beeson, and kind of how you look back on it now. But let's say a word about CBU. I've already mentioned what a beautiful campus it is. That's where each of you is teaching now. How did the three of you end up at the same university? And by the way, we have a fourth Beeson grad who's also there, Danny Blair, so there are four of you. I think that's more than any other school for Beeson grads to be teaching at. So how'd that happen? Tony Chute: Well, I came to Cal Baptist in 2003 and I was there to teach church history. And we were still looking for an Old Testament professor the year I came. So after I was hired, we were looking for someone else to teach Old Testament. I can tell you where I was standing at when the Dean at the time, Dan Wilson, came to me and said, "Here's an applicant from Beeson Divinity School, Jeff Mooney. Do you know him?" I said, "I know him, and we need to hire him. He is that guy. He's the person we need to hire for this position." And so I took the lead on calling Jeff, and Jeff and I talked on the phone. We had him out there, and as soon as we had Jeff out there, we knew he was the guy we wanted to hire. Todd is a different story. Todd was hired twice. And some people come to the Kingdom kicking and screaming. Timothy George: Does that mean that you were hired, fired, and then re-hired? Todd Bates: It just means Southern California's a scary place for Southern Baptists. Tony Chute: So Jeff and I were working at Cal Baptist together. We were hiring for a philosophy position. And Todd and I had kept in touch over the years. I think Todd's one of the smartest guys I know. And I said, "Todd is the guy we need for this position." And so we invited Todd to come out and interview for the position. He did. He was offered the position, but he really wasn't done where he was serving at at the time, so with integrity, he had to decline the offer that we made. And I could tell a story about Todd here that he may remember. Todd Bates: Oh boy. Tony Chute: We did not hire that year for the philosophy position. In fact, we were looking for two positions for the following year. I remember where I was. I was interviewing a person for this position, and it just didn't go well. And I walked back to my office and I thought, "I wish Todd would have taken this position." And I get to my office, and on my phone, there's a message from Todd. "Is the offer still good?" Literally, waiting for us to answer that call and so we ... had to go through the process again, but he earned it, twice. Timothy George: So the timing was just right. Todd Bates: Yes. Providential. Timothy George: Absolutely! Todd Bates: And Danny came too, I was teaching at a ... we were actually looking at a position, it didn't quite fit Danny, but again, he was interested in coming. And I went to teach for him at his church in Tennessee. And while he was there, we were talking about deaf ministry. He was very involved in that. And he had done the research on California, there's a large population of people that need that ministry. And so we just brought Danny out, and another school hired him at Cal Baptist, Arts and Sciences. Timothy George: We should say, also your Provost has connections to Samford University. Tony Chute: Chuck Sands, yeah. Timothy George: Yes, Chuck was a member of the Education School, maybe? At Samford before he came to CBU. So we're well-represented out there. Tony Chute: So is it fair to call us "Beeson West"? Chris Morgan has been out to Beeson to speak a few times and he calls us "Beeson West", just in jest. Timothy George: Right. Todd Bates: We wear it like a badge, though. Timothy George: Now I want to ask each of you to reflect, just briefly, about how Beeson, your experience as a student at Beeson, has prepared you for what you're doing now in your academic career. And in your ministry, also. Todd Bates: Well, sitting in a coffee area drinking coffee with students from all different denominations really shaped how I approached ideas. So you're dealing with people who have very strong positions on the same ideas you do, but very different positions. So you learn how to navigate some very serious questions in a loving, charitable manner. And that has shaped me more deeply than just about anything else in my education process. Beeson was very formative. Timothy George: A lot of students say this, that the interdenominational character, the fact that we come from different streams of the Christian faith, but we find a community together at Beeson. That does have a forming influence. Todd Bates: It does. We have imbibed Timothy George to our marrow. Jeff Mooney: Yeah, I would say the same thing. I would put it that I am more definitively Baptist because of Beeson Divinity School. And yet with this sort of catholic charity that I thought always was representative of the school. And so I think that that even stretches on into the church that I'm at as well. Timothy George: You're a pastor too, right? Jeff Mooney: I'm a pastor as well. And I think that you could look at that church and feel a sense of this sort of catholicity, but very definitive Baptist kind of disposition from a school that old, really emerged out of my time at Beeson. Tony Chute: And I want to add to that. Interdenominational spirit, the catholic spirit that makes us all appreciate our tradition better. And on top of that, believing the Bible is the Word of God. So I came to Beeson in part because I read an article by you, "Lest We Forget". And it said in there that we will consider any argument, we will read any book. We are not afraid of anything, you said, at Beeson. But we do believe every miracle in the Bible actually happened as it says. Everything the Bible says is true. And that told me there was a commitment to God's Word that also does not come with being completely defensive and just giving shallow answers to serious questions. And I think in California we have people who aren't largely Baptist by nature, and who are skeptical by nature, it's helpful to have a university where we can talk about the Bible from confessional standpoint. We believe the Bible to be true, but we also know that people have real questions and they don't come to the questions the same way they do in the south. So I think Beeson prepared us in many ways for the context we're in now. Timothy George: Now you've touched on something. I want to ask you. Because California is not Alabama, and you're in a very different context, as you're saying, Tony. What's that like? All of you were trained in the South? Are you from the South? All of you? You're from Georgia, from Alabama. So you're all southern guys, out there in California, which we think of. You know there's discussion now about cutting California off and making it it's own republic. Tony Chute: And sadly, if it were a vote, I think we would. Todd Bates: It would be a fairly large percentage of the state- Tony Chute: And I don't mean California's seceding, I mean the rest of America. But California's a great place to live if you don't watch the news. All the hype is one thing, I get that. Politics is one thing, I get that. But people are people. And I think Beeson prepared us to engage people first. Not to categorize people. Not to pigeonhole people, but to treat them as people made in the image of God. And I think we do that well at Cal Baptist. Todd Bates: And they have genuine questions. Yesterday I was mentioning that I'll have all sorts of students in my classroom. Many of which have never really engaged Christianity at a deep level. So to be able to bring these very Christian ideas to them, biblically rooted, and in an engaging manner, they are just really pleased with what they're hearing. So you really get to interact with people who are almost completely ignorant of Christianity. That can be good and bad, but it's a fun place to be. Tony Chute: But even California has a strong Evangelical tradition. It's a rich history of new evangelicalism in California. We'll try anything, right? And so to have a place where we can actually have the freedom to come out of constraints of just being purely Baptist, only Baptist. I think we're all committed Baptists, but we have an evangelical spirit to us, that I think engages our students well. Timothy George: And you edited a book, Tony, "Why We Belong", which kind of encapsulates in some ways what we're talking about. Tony Chute: It came out of Beeson. Timothy George: Say a word about that book. It's a wonderful book. Tony Chute: When I went to Beeson, I was touched by the fact that you could have godly, believing Christians who still stayed committed to their denomination. And yet, in the classroom, and in the halls of Beeson, everyone worked together. So it was never siloed. We were never isolationists, trying to prove our point. The "Why We Belong" book was basically a way of ... Chris Morgan, Robert Peterson, and I edited the book. You contributed a chapter, "Why I Am a Baptist and an Evangelical", and as I was teaching Baptist History and Church History at Cal Baptist, I said, here are students who want to know, why can't we just be Christian? Why do we have to have a label beside our name? And California is rich with inter or rather non-denominationalism. Let's just be Christian. Let's just read the Bible. Well, you taught me in Church History that's been tried before. And eventually it winds up becoming a denomination. So the book, "Why We Belong" is, why we belong to Christ first. We are Christians first. Why we belong to our denominations also. But why we also belong to each other. And so you wrote a chapter, "Why I Am a Baptist and an Evangelical". Gerald Bray wrote "Why I Am Anglican and Evangelical". So that really came out of our time at Beeson together. Timothy George: And there were Presbyterians and Lutherans, and several other denominations represented in that book. It's kind of a personal manifesto, a confessional approach to this issue. Tony Chute: And what made it slightly unique was, it wasn't Timothy George saying, "Why I'm a Baptist", and Gerald Bray saying “Why you're wrong”. We let the story ... you told your story, "This is why I'm a Baptist." He told his story, "This is why I'm Anglican." Doug Sweeney, "This is why I'm Lutheran". And we let the reader decide, instead of trying to pile on something and say, "Here's where you're wrong." Timothy George: Yeah. Now who was your favorite teacher at Beeson? Tony Chute: Dean George, of course! Jeff Mooney: Right, of course! Timothy George: Name two, and the Dean is not in the running. Jeff Mooney: Ken Mathews and second place would have to go to Gerald Bray. Just because of the stories. It's because of the way he interacted in class. It was absolutely hysterical. Timothy George: And when you were at Beeson, Gerald was a fairly new faculty member for us. He hadn't been there too many years. Jeff Mooney: Yeah, in fact I was there when he was trying to get car insurance. He called me on an elevator one time and he said, "Do you have insurance?" And I said, "Well, yeah. Of course I've got insurance." He says, "Well, this is how much I've got to pay for insurance." And I said, "Well, what do you drive?" He goes, "Well, it's not a plane!" It was really fun to try and watch him settle in. Timothy George: How about you Tony? Tony Chute: I would say Ken Mathews also, because I came to Beeson wanting to study Old Testament. And then as I thought more about, I'll be reading the Bible anyways as a Christian. I want to see who I'm reading the Bible with, I began leaning towards Church History. But Ken Mathews was sort of a magnet. And actually, Ken Mathews' class on Genesis was a test case. I didn't know much about Beeson. I did know from previous experience that the Baptists disagreed about the Bible. And so I thought, I'll take a Genesis class my first semester there, and then I'll know if Beeson is really on the up and up about believing the Bible. And boy, did he believe it. I think everybody who's had him for a class could say it wasn't just his teaching, it was his praying in class that really drew you into the class. Timothy George: A very Godly man, and a deep scholar. His two volumes on Genesis, I think are classic. Tony Chute: And Jeff and I actually had our first role in publishing that. Jeff Mooney: Yeah, we edited. I think I edited the Hebrew version, the first volume. And then Tony had a bigger hand than I did. But Ken was so gracious to ask us to help. I just felt like I was walking on Cloud Nine the day he asked me. Tony Chute: I don't want to say second place, because this is not second place. But Ken Mathews was sort of my test case, and Richard Wells. Timothy George: Ah, yes. Tony Chute: He was the one who launched me off, because I was looking at a doctoral program, and I took a hermeneutics course with Dr. Wells, and he used Grant Osborne’s “Hermeneutical Spiral”. And that told me the Trinity cared as much about the Bible as much as Beeson did. Timothy George: So that's where you did your Ph.D. Tony Chute: Did my Ph.D. there, but Richard Wells was the one who taught the class. It was his connection there that I thought, well, he really is influential in my life. Timothy George: One of the most versatile faculty members, though. He can teach anything. He taught counseling, his degree from Baylor, Ph.D., was in counseling, I think, and psychology. But then he taught New Testament. He taught hermeneutics. He could just cover the field. Tony Chute: And I think he was trying to get a second Ph.D. while I was there. Timothy George: That's right, literature and all that. How about you, Todd? Todd Bates: I think Gerald Bray has to be the top. His handling of ideas and theology and philosophy. Just the way he handled the whole history. And then Richard Wells. Playing basketball. I spent many hours on the basketball court with Richard. Timothy George: He played basketball and he drank coffee. I remember that. More coffee and more basketball. But at the top of that, he really produced a lot of stuff. Todd Bates: Well, it's just the building of the community outside the classroom that matters a lot to the formation, the spiritual formation. So it's not simply in the classroom for us at Beeson, it was also what went on outside the classroom. Tony Chute: So you won't let us say this, but we have to say something about you. Todd Bates: Absolutely. Jeff Mooney: Yes. Tony Chute: But you were the reason we came to Beeson ultimately. You left the impression on our hearts as we left Beeson ultimately. Timothy George: Well, thank you, Tony. Jeff Mooney: I tell people all the time that you will forever be my Dean because during my time at Beeson, I was in a really, really horrible church situation. I don't even know if you remember doing this, but you would periodically put Martin Luther's pastoral letters in my box. And it meant everything to me. It was the only pastoring at times, that I got. In fact, I've told my students that the reason I became an academic ... I'm the opposite of most Baptists that are in Alabama, who believe academics don't buy into Christianity of the Bible and the sort of itinerant evangelist might, and for me, it was the most honest and authentic Christians I knew were all academics. And they were the ones pastoring me. And so in my mind, I was running for the light when I went for my Ph.D. But you will always have a deep place in my heart, not just as my Dean, but in some regards as pastor. Timothy George: Thank you, Jeff. Todd Bates: I'm not done. I want to speak about you as well. When I first visited Beeson, Beeson was the last on my list. I actually went as a favor to my pastor, who was strongly encouraging me to take a look at it. So I went, okay, just for that. But I had lots of questions. It was at a really interesting time in Southern Baptist life. And you spent about an hour of time with a young, budding pastor, who didn't know the right questions to ask, much less a good answer. And you just gently took me through, and talked about the beauties of Southern Baptist, the beauties of what Beeson offers, and I will never forget that. That is why we are at Beeson. Timothy George: I don't remember anything you all have told. But I don't deny it. Now you know, I always ask this question, "Who's your favorite teacher?" When I talk to our alums, and one name that you all haven't mentioned, because you didn't have him, but a lot of students will mention his name is Dr. Robert Smith, Jr. Because he came after your time as a student. He teaches preaching, of course, for us. But our whole faculty are named. I mean, Frank Thielman is another name. So many of those faculty will be brought back in conversation that had a formative influence on ... I think that's one of the unique things about Beeson. We're small enough as a community that we try to be intentional about relationships, about following God's call in your life in terms of that dynamic, of interpersonal conversation. I think that still is the case at Beeson Divinity School. Now I want to ask you the question, you know all academic institutions are into assessment. We kind of have to be because of accreditation. It's one of the requirements. And so, one of the ways of assessing what we do is to ask our students who've graduated, as the three of you have. Looking back now, talk about your experience, and what could we do better? What might be improved? Now you all have been back to Beeson from time to time, so you have some idea of how we've grown and evolved over the years since you were students. What would you say, looking to the future, how can Beeson do a better job of fulfilling our mission, which is to prepare God-called men and women for the service of the church? How can we do that better, more faithfully? Tony Chute: Well, this is not a critique, because when we do send students to Beeson, I always ask, "Is it true what I told you? Because we haven't been there in a long time as students, and we are now recommending you to go there. But is it true what I told you? Do they care about you? Are they committed to God's Word? Do you get a pastoral flavor to every class you're taking?" And they all say, yes. It's still true. One thing I noticed though, by the way. This was a brochure I just recently saw. It said, "Being Baptist at Beeson". I think that's important. You have more and more emphasis on non-denominationalism, mere Christianity, and I do think it's important to remain committed to the Baptist story, the Baptist roots that we have in an inter-denominational environment. So I want to encourage Beeson students to enjoy the time they have there under their professors. And also explore their own roots, their own tradition, even deeper while they're there. Timothy George: You know, just to illustrate your point, this last semester we've been dealing with the Reformation, the 500th anniversary and all that. And we've had different speakers, Lutherans and Presbyterians. Our most recent speaker was Trevin Wax. Do you all know him? On what does being Baptist have to do with the Reformation? So that's a stream from which many of us come, and we want to honor it, and learn from it, see how it fits into what God is doing all over the oikoumene, the whole inhabited world. So what would you guys say? Todd Bates: Kind of piggybacking on Tony, I think that's right. We talked about mere Christianity, but (C.S.) Lewis had this idea that you can't stay in a hallway. You've got to be in the rooms. And so the idea to avoid is that somehow catholicity means that you don't really belong. That we remain in the hallway. I think one of the things I enjoyed about, and then as Tony mentioned, one of the things that you all are doing better and better is reminding people about the rooms. So this is where you actually put into practice what is taught in the hallway. Timothy George: Since you all were there, you mentioned Gerald Bray a couple of times. Of course, he's an Anglican, but we had an increase in Anglican students who come to Beeson, and we now have an Anglican Institute at Beeson to help prepare these Anglicans for service in that particular branch of God's family. And it's thriving. It's doing very well. Jeff Mooney: I would also say that, particularly for Baptist kids, when we come ... like when I came to Beeson, I just had this more sort of pop liturgy that I had grown up with in my mind. I didn't know there was anything else. I didn't know that Baptists had done something else. So I think I want to tell people that my own experience felt like it was really healthy by just saying, remain Baptist and then turn around and look back a long way, and recapture some of the things that were so significant to so many Baptists before our time. So the Center for Baptist Renewal, which you and I are involved with, I think that's one of the points of their mission, which is really, really great, is to get people to look backwards and not be owned by the pop liturgy. Tony Chute: I want to add one more thing, if I can. We've said his name, but we haven't talked about him, Mr. Beeson. When I was a student at Beeson, I was grateful for the sacrifices that he made. So one thing I would say is keep telling Mr. Beeson's story. This was somebody who was gifted and blessed by the Lord to make a lot of money. But his whole purpose in making that money was to give it back, to give it to the Lord. And as a student, I felt a special obligation to use my time wisely, because somebody had invested in me and made it possible to go to Beeson for very cheap. I know many people think Beeson doesn't need money anymore because Mr. Beeson gave it, but even as graduates, we should be giving to Beeson. And as students, they should be giving their time to Beeson. Timothy George: Thank you, Tony. That's true. I'm glad you mentioned Ralph Waldo Beeson, our founding benefactor. We exist as a school in large measure because he had a vision for this and provided resources for it back in 1988. He gave us a charge also. He said, "I want you to do three things. I want you to be solidly grounded in the historic Christian faith. Be an Evangelical school." That's the word he used in his will. Although the word he would often use with me is Orthodox. He said, "I want you to be an Orthodox school." He meant, committed to the historic Christian faith. And then he also wanted this school to be interdenominational, so he set up these chairs that must be filled by scholars from different traditions. That's rather unique among schools like ours. And then the third thing was to have a commitment to the world Christian mission. To be global in our vision and in our outreach. Now I know that's something that's important to you all and to where you're teaching. So say a little bit about that dimension, the global mission dimension of the Christian faith and how that plays out in your own ministry. Jeff Mooney: Yeah, the, it's played out most significantly in mine through Redeemer Baptist Church. We've sent probably close to 30 missionaries out full-time, well actually about 25 or so, full-time over the last 5-10 years. And then I've lost count of how many journeymen and small missions groups. But it's a very natural move to go from Biblical Theology to missions. And so while I talk a great deal about the global perspective, particularly traditional cultures and things of that perspective, Christianity and the Old Testament in particular in class, the missional aspect of things has really fleshed itself out in the local church. Timothy George: Wonderful. Tony Chute: Well, California Baptist University is a Great Commission University. So when Dr. Ellis came, that was his mission was to make us a Great Commission University. We take students in from all over the world. That's intentional. We recruit from all over the world. We want people who have never heard of Christ to come to our school. And whatever their gift and talents are, whether it's sports or education or anything else, we want them to be exposed to the Gospel. In every classroom, in every discipline. So that's not foreign to us. We took that from Beeson with us, because that was part of the culture we were at then. Timothy George: That's wonderful to see it being worked out. I've been talking today on the Beeson Podcast to three graduates of Beeson Divinity School. Not in the very first class, but I'd say you're in the second level. You were all three graduates in the mid-nineties, '95, '96, '97. You've gone on to be professors and authors of books. And involved in so many ways in the Lord's work now out at California Baptist University. So we're about out of time. If you want to make one final statement about your experience at Beeson, or whatever you would say to our listeners that would be an encouragement to them. Tony, we'll start with you. Tony Chute: So for the students who are at Beeson now, I would say treasure the time that you have because every time I send a student from Cal Baptist to Beeson, I'm a little bit envious, because they get to experience what I enjoyed so much. Todd Bates: I would just echo that. I would say, this is a very unique place, and you get the opportunity in a lifetime to be in really unique situations maybe once or twice. And so, when you're there, just drink it all up. Jeff Mooney: Indeed. And as you're sitting in class, studying the great works, and you're preparing for exams, do not forget to step back and relish the time. It will pass soon enough and just enjoy every moment. Tony Chute: Amen. Timothy George: Thank all three of you. We are proud of you. We thank God for you and your wonderful work and ministry. And we want to keep these ties very strong with you and your Alma Mater, Beeson Divinity School. Thanks so much. Tony Chute: Thank you. Jeff Mooney: Thanks. Todd Bates: Thank you, Dr. George. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website, beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational, evangelical divinity school training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson podcast.