Beeson Podcast, Episode 358 Annemarie Kidder September 19, 2017 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast. You know how it is when you meet someone and you see how they have grown in life over the years that have passed since you first knew them? Our guest is like that on the podcast today. She was my student when I taught at the Baptist seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, many years ago. I was a young professor, she was even a younger, eager student fresh from Germany in this country, her name, Annemarie Kidder. She's now a pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Monroe, Michigan and she's come to Beeson to speak to us today about a topic we're going to talk about on this podcast, Martin Luther and his wife Katharina von Bora. But first of all, Annemarie, welcome to the Beeson Podcast. Annemarie Kidder: Thank you very much, Dr. George. It's a pleasure to be here. Timothy George: Now, let's just tell our listeners a little bit about your own background. I said you were from Germany, tell us about that. Annemarie Kidder: Well, I grew up in Bavaria. I was a Roman Catholic. I loved the church and then very soon, in my younger years as a youth, I turned away from the church, came to this country as an adult and found Christ, or Christ found me. So my upbringing in Germany was, I would say, pious but eventually also secular. The Reformation meant very little to me other than that there were also these other Christians called Protestants. Timothy George: So you became one yourself. Annemarie Kidder: I became one myself, yes. Timothy George: Yeah, and eventually not only a Protestant but a Presbyterian. We won't go into all of that journey, but I do want to mention just a little bit about some of your writings. You've written a number of books and I wish we had time to talk about all of them, let me just mention a couple of titles, you can say what you want to. You have a book called Women Celibacy and the Church, you have a book on the Power of Solitude, a book, I love this title, Discovering Your True Self in a World of Nonsense and Noise, it has a wonderful subtitle, and then also a book on confession, which you were so kind as to dedicate to me, which I'm very grateful. So what would you say about all this writing? You've also trend translated works from German into English. You're a scholar really as well as a pastor. Annemarie Kidder: Well, thank you. Thank you. That is what I do in my spare time I would say, but my love, my first love is to minister amidst the people and to help them find Christ in their life and to see what the community of the saints is like and what Christ can do in our midst. That is where my heart is. The writing is, I would say that it's something that I enjoy doing. I enjoy doing research. But the people I serve are more interested in how I relate to them and how they find the truth of God in Christ. Timothy George: Well put. Paul talks about the Corinthian Christians being his letters of recommendation written in his heart, and you seem to talk the same way about the people with whom you serve in Michigan. Well, let's go to Martin and Katie, this great couple at the headwaters of the Reformation. This is an intriguing story, Martin Luther and Katharina von Bora because obviously he was a monk, an Augustinian monk, and she was a nun, they both had taken vows of celibacy, which they then broke to get married to one another and raise a family. What a fascinating story. Help us understand some of the circumstances that brought these two remarkable people Martin and Katharina together. Annemarie Kidder: Well, both of them had in their background almost 20 years each of monastic life. Katharina had come across the writings of Martin Luther, she lived in a cloistered convent of the Cistercians just across the border of Saxony, and Martin Luther of course was well known through his writings and he had been relieved of his responsibilities as a priest, and by virtue of having been excommunicated lost also his status as a monk. This happen in 1521. He met Katharina as one of a dozen nuns who had escaped from the convent and he felt responsible for their escape by virtue of his writings and so he took it upon himself to find home or a husband for each one of them. Three returned to their families, which was gracious of the families because it was not something that one could expect. The families had placed their daughter in a convent to sanctify the family, that is how it was perceived, and to have the daughter now come back was not a pleasant thing to witness. So three only where placed back home. For the others he found husbands but Katharina was left as the remnant and so he tried to find a marriage candidate for her, she rejected that candidate because he was 45 years older and in turn suggested that perhaps she might either marry Luther's friend or Luther himself. Timothy George: So she made that suggestion herself. Annemarie Kidder: She indirectly made a marriage proposal to Luther. Timothy George: Now, that's a fascinating story. Now, tell us a little bit about her escape with the other nuns. That's an interesting story, too, from the convent. Annemarie Kidder: Yes. Well, a trader, a grocer, had a daughter in the convent and probably not sure how his own daughter ended up there, but she must have confided in him saying there are several of us that would like to leave, but that's impossible once you make your vows, once you commit it's impossible to leave, and so he was co-opted in smuggling them out of the convent using barrels, herring barrels. Timothy George: Herring barrels, for to feed the fish? Annemarie Kidder: Yes, fish barrels, to bring them out. That's what happened. There were several who witnessed this incident as this grocer came in with his wagon and some of them who saw it said, "Here, a wagon load of vestal virgins has come to town. God, help us to find them husbands, lest worst befalls." Timothy George: It's sort of humorous when we think about escaping from the convent in a barrel of herring, but it was a desperate situation for them too, wasn't it? So to take them in, to receive them, to find a place for them, as you say, this was a big challenge that Luther and the other reformers had to deal with.Now, what we're talking about here represents one of the many changes but I think one of the most obvious and visible changes that happened when the Reformation was introduced and that was a change in this whole question of celibacy, and particularly related to priests, to pastors that they could be married, that was unheard off. It was true, I think, that a number of priests that did have women who lived with them and not married to them, sometimes even children by such women, that was not officially approved, but it nonetheless did happen, but now there's a whole new worldview coming into place where a family, a clergy family has a role. Is that a little bit what it must've been like to live at that very edge of such a change? Annemarie Kidder: Well, I want to say a little more about this issue of celibacy, Luther was thoroughly steeped in the Middle Ages. He was a man of the Middle Ages who lived at the cost of modernity and so Luther's system, his thinking, was driven by the status, the station in life, where God has placed you, there remain. The three stations that originated early on already in the Bible were the station of the virgin, the one who commits to the celibate life by entering, making monastic vows, taking monastic vows. The second station was that of widow or a widower. Both of these stations are already extolled in Scripture. We already hear of the Order of Virgins, we already hear of the Order of Widows. Then there's the third station, which is that of the married life and they are number three. They rank at the bottom. Throughout medieval history, we see this three-tier system, those who are virgins and commit to the life of celibacy as being the role model, the example of the holy life. At the time of Luther, this system was firmly in place. It had been originally promoted by the church fathers, by Tertullian, by Origen, little bit on the extreme side because he castrated himself or so one is told, and then by Augustine as well. So this three-tier system was in place. What Luther took issue with was that it had divided up the population, the Christian community, into these three classes. Well, his doctrine on the priesthood of all believers was one where everyone was on level ground before the cross and so in a radical way, Luther sought to reverse the system, thereby elevating marriage to the top, which then actually we see born out in history to where Christians who are not married in Protestantism are somewhat frowned upon. Luther brought about a reversal, I would say, of this three-tier system by going the other way. He kept saying, married life is a lot harder any monastic role. Timothy George: Maybe we would agree with him, I think, I don't know, but it is true that Luther was not himself the first to get married, a few others before him had already taken that step and he was following them in a way, but I think the fact that he and Katie von Bora established a home with such a warmth and wisdom in it, and hospitality to it, this became a kind of paradigm for so many others that would follow through the centuries, right down to our own time. Annemarie Kidder: Yes, yes, it became a model of Christian partnership. Timothy George: Yeah. Now, can you tell us what Katie was like as a person? It's a little bit hard to know that, but if you were to meet her, if she were right here in the studio with us sitting in this empty chair by us, what would she look like? What would she sound like? Who was Katie? Annemarie Kidder: Katie must have been, and we don't know this for sure because we have very few of her letters, but she must have been, based on Luther's testimony and those of other eyewitnesses, a very strong personality. She could not have survived Luther as a husband unless she had been as strong-willed and, I think, persevering as Luther was. I think she toned down Luther's language a lot, she taught him patience, she allowed him to see what the nitty-gritty of day-to-day life was like and that in all, even in the smallest, such as tasks relating to the house, raising children, there was God in Christ, and that is, I think, the great discovery that she allowed Luther to make. That she introduced him to the Christ in the small as well as in the big, because Luther was a big man with big ideas. Timothy George: Yeah. We don't have many of Katie's letters to Luther, but we have a lot of Luther's letters to her. Annemarie Kidder: Yes, we do. Timothy George: They speak with great affection for her and he has special names, he calls her my Lord Katie or some things like that. Say a little bit about their relationship, their personal relationship in marriage. Annemarie Kidder: Well, the initial intent, I believe, for Luther to marry her was to give her security and also to make a statement about the abuses that had happened through the celibacy that was the mark of holiness, but I think eventually he realized that it was in marriage that this small church within in a church could be created. Almost, he was a precursor of ___ in that regard, Ecclesiola in Ecclesia. Timothy George: Who was a Pietist, a Lutheran Pietist of a little bit later time and has this idea, explained this phrase, Ecclesiola en Ecclesia. Annemarie Kidder: That's right, that's right, a small church within a larger church. Luther saw in this family a small church. They sang together, they had worshiped together, he trained the children to memorize Bible verses, we have paintings that show Luther playing the lute and Katie directing the children in song and hymn singing. And so the home became really a small church, a small worship space, and it was not just education but also worship that took place. Katie had impressed upon Luther to turn this black cloister where they lived, a former Augustinian monastery, which was Luther's monastery that he renovated so that it could become a hostel. They actually ran what I call a small Holiday Inn, Katie did. She used the money she made from the borders to supplement the income. Timothy George: This brings the question, she had a great deal of savvy, I think, in running that enterprise, it wasn't just a bed-and-breakfast, it was a really little business there and she managed to fish pond not far away, and a garden, and sow for the farm. She was in charge of really of all of it. She had a managerial ability to do that. Annemarie Kidder: Yes. I think that is probably what Luther appreciates so much in her other than that they were together in Christ. He saw that she had skills that he would never have, he hadn't even thought of them as skills and so his terms of endearment for her revolve around those tasks and many times when he addresses her, he will list several functions that she has within this hostel enterprise or this hotel enterprise, and then he adds, "and whatever else she may be." Meaning, he saw her potential. Now, I was reading a biography on her and I found out that this was her skill sets were somewhat probably due to where she was in the Cistercian monastery, Cistercians are a Benedictine order, ___, again pray and work goes hand-in-hand, and the novices, which are those nuns that are trained, that are applicants to become full-fledged nuns are expected to go through various departments of the monastery. So there is, for example, the department of the one who oversees the cooking, there is the department of the one who oversees the finances of the monastery and so various departments and novices had to go through and spend so much time in each of them, so which is potentially where she learned the skills, the managerial skills. Timothy George: Was Katie von Bora a theologian? Annemarie Kidder: Katie was called by Luther, my preacher and my doctor, I think when he said doctor he meant mostly that she tended to his ills because Katie had also been in the pharmacy of the convent and so she had a reputation of being the town doctor before, using herbs. Katie was also his editorial assistant and in that she asked Luther often to tone down his course language. Timothy George: She was not entirely successful in that enterprise, I would say. Annemarie Kidder: Not entirely, not entirely. Timothy George: But she tried. Annemarie Kidder: But she tried. Katherina managed to hold her own in theological debate because we have some exchanges, again these are Luther's comments, to where she makes repartees using Scripture, throwing that right back into Luther's face, who of course is fond of quoting Scripture, and perhaps if not silencing him at least making him stop for a minute and think. Timothy George: I remember reading about one occasion when I think his precious daughter had died, Magdalena, and he was in a deep, deep dark depression, as he was want to be on other occasions, but especially now and for days. And then one day Katherina comes down dressed in the robes of a widow, a widow's weaves, black, and he says, "What's happened?" She says, "Oh, have you not heard? God has died." It woke him out of his stupor and he realized that God is alive even in the midst of the darkness. That shows real theological wisdom, doesn't it? Annemarie Kidder: That's right, yes. I will mention that in the sermon as an example. Yes, yes, she knew how to argue her case. Also, there's a painting by Cranach that shows her together with Luther in the company of the children in conversation with Luther. This would have been also, of course a favorite theme of Cranach who wanted to promote a Reformation to say, "Look, this is what a Reformation couple in Christ looks like and this is what the family looks like." Timothy George: Yeah. These are two remarkable, very unique individuals, Martin Luther and Katherina von Bora, we've talked about what they did in Wittenberg, in the parsonage, the black cloister that became the first Protestant parsonage it’s called, how important that was. What can modern couples today learn from Martin and Katie's marriage that would help us in our world? Annemarie Kidder: First and foremost, to have as one's goal, Christ's Kingdom. That undergirded their marriage. They were brought together and they labored together. Secondly, to show great respect for the other, to value the gifts, as we see that in the terms of endearment that Luther has for his wife. She only calls him ___, although I'm sure she could have chosen other names for him, but again, it shows that great respect. Third, great patience, and Luther himself talks about that. Patience with the other. Fourth, to become a sacrifice, to consider the other part of the sacrifice one makes for Christ. That is not a favorite term today, the word sacrifice, that alone when it involves relationship together. I think, lastly, that this is a relationship that is ordained in Christ and that is, again, something that nowadays is not heard so much, that God gives us our spouse or that God gives us our body so we are not in possession of this body and we're also really not the makers and shapers and claimers of our destiny. Timothy George: My guest today on the Beeson Podcast has been Dr. Annemarie Kidder. She is the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Monroe, Michigan. A wonderful minister of the gospel, a fantastic writer and thinker, and she's our guest here Beeson Divinity School. It's been an honor to see you again and to have you with us on the podcast, Annemarie. Annemarie Kidder: Thank you. Thank you Dr. George. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast with host, Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school, training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work, and we hope that you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson Podcast.