Beeson Podcast, Episode 367 Thomas Guarino November 21, 2017 Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Now your host, Timothy George. Timothy George: Welcome to today's Beeson Podcast. Well today I have the privilege of having a conversation with a dear friend of mine, Fr. Thomas Guarino, professor of Systematic Theology at Seton Hall University, and also with me, the co-chair of the movement known as Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Welcome, Tom, to the Beeson Podcast. Thomas Guarino: Thanks Dean George. It's wonderful to be here. Timothy George: Now we want to talk about some of your recent writings and in particular about Vatican II. You have a brand new book coming out from Eerdmans Press next year on Vatican II, but let's begin maybe by telling a little bit about your own story. Where did you come from? Thomas Guarino: Great, Timothy, and welcome to all of our listeners. Greetings in our Lord. Again, my name is Tom Guarino, and I teach systematic theology at Seton Hall, as Timothy said. I felt a strong attraction to the church when I was a teenager. I kind of had a plan to go into chemistry and I had all these chemistry sets around the house and I was always mixing chemicals, and then, you know, I just got this sense of attending church much more frequently, and ultimately I felt a call to the priesthood. I went to college, I went to Seton Hall University for college and then after that I went to the seminary in Rome, the North American College. I was ordained after that and I worked for a while in a parish. Then I went on for my doctorate at the Catholic University of America. I received my doctorate in theology. I had always been interested in Ecumenism, so gradually, even though my work was not originally in Ecumenism, but it was on many of the precursors to the second Vatican Council. I wrote on a French theologian by the name of Henri Boulad. Boulad, interestingly enough, I won't go into all the details. He was silenced for a while and while he was silenced, he wrote a huge three volume study of Karl Barth. Boulad, which became very important in the Catholic world. He was one of the first authoritative Catholic interpreters of Barth. Timothy George: Yeah, he and von Balthazar, both. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Yeah. Timothy George: Were interested in Barth. Thomas Guarino: Yeah, absolutely. If I can just digress with a funny story. Many of your listeners may know Avery Dulles, Cardinal Avery Dulles who was long involved in Evangelical/Catholic dialogue, but Avery Dulles, when he was thinking of writing his doctoral dissertation, he met with Boulad and Boulad said to him, well if the Jesuits give you 10 years, you have to write on Barth. He said, if they only give you five years, write on Bultmann. If they only give you three years, write on Ebeling. As a matter of fact, Avery Dulles did write on ... He didn't write on one of those thinkers, but he wrote on basically Protestant understanding of the word in preaching, reflecting on his own Presbyterian background, and the importance of that. Timothy George: We had Cardinal Dulles with us here at Beeson on several occasions, and the book that we remember so well and is used by some of our students in their classes is “Models of the Church.” Thomas Guarino: Sure. Timothy George: That's a later book but a very perceptive reading on how to understand the church, how it's seen throughout history and throughout ecclesiology today. Thomas Guarino: Right. Of course, Avery was an influence on me. He was teaching at Catholic University when I was a student there. Of course, he was always deeply interested in ecumenism, and later I had the good fortune to get involved, was invited by Richard Neuhaus and Chuck Colson, to get invited with Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and that's been a great blessing in my life this past 22 years. Timothy George: Yeah. We want to talk about Vatican II. Thomas Guarino: Sure. Timothy George: Because you have a brand new book, as I say, coming out next year from Eerdmans, on Vatican II. Now many of our listeners will be well familiar with this story, but some not. So, why don't you pretend you're speaking to people who've never heard of Vatican II. Thomas Guarino: Good. Timothy George: What is Vatican II? How did it come about? Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Good, Timothy. Well, Vatican II was a council. You might call it a global meeting. John O'Malley who has a book on it, said it's probably the biggest meeting that the world has ever seen, of 2,500 people in one place to meet with an agenda. It came about in, it started in 1962, but the preparations started many years before that. John XXIII was convinced that there needed to be a global meeting, you know what we call in Catholicism, an ecumenical council. There are a lot of questions about that, but let's just leave it at that for the moment. It was really all the bishops of the world, and most of all the Catholic bishops of the world and most of the great Catholic theologians of the world, gathered in Rome to discuss many issues. Now John XXIII got the idea for it back in 1958. John XXIII, listeners may remember, was a pope who was elected pope when he was 76 years old. Pius XII had died and he was considered to be an interim measure. He was an old man already, in his late 70s. Timothy George: Kind of a caretaker. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. That's right. That he would be pope for a few years, and then a younger, more vigorous man would take over. But John XXIII surprised the world when he called an ecumenical council. Nobody was expecting it. You might say, why did he call an ecumenical council? Well, in many ways it was an evangelical spirit. He felt the Catholic Church had to be renewed, that it had grown a little stale, that it had a grown a little, shall we say had some hardening of the arteries and he wanted to renew the church, rejuvenate the church, rejuvenate the preaching of the gospel. He talks about it, he even talks about it as a new Pentecost, and outpouring of the Spirit where the gospel will be preached more strongly. Timothy George: Now the council, the previous council was the 19th century Vatican I. Thomas Guarino: That's right. Timothy George: So it had been almost 100 years. Thomas Guarino: Almost 100 years. That was called in 1869, almost 100 years ... Timothy George: And before that, the Council of Trent. Thomas Guarino: Right. Timothy George: And the Reformation. So the Council of Trent, in a sense responding to the Protestant Reformation. Vatican I responding in some ways to French Revolution. Thomas Guarino: Right. Timothy George: Secularism, all that. But Vatican II had a different kind of agenda and aura to it. Thomas Guarino: That's right, Timothy. You know first, the Catholic Church recognizes 20 ecumenical councils. Vatican II is the only council without condemnations. John XXIII didn't want it to be a council with condemnations. He thought it should be something different. It should be a chance to preach the gospel. Why did he think it was so important? Looking back, I think he himself had served as a papal diplomat in various countries. He had been in Greece. He had been in Bulgaria. He had been in Turkey. He had been in countries without many Catholics. Bulgaria and Greece were mostly Eastern Orthodox countries. Turkey, of course, was an Islamic country, and he had, of course, like all people of his age, he would have lived through World War II. Several, really events that were distressing and discouraging for humanity. I think, when I look at John XXIII's life, he really thought the council has to emphasize forging strong links among all men and women. I think that was his concern, that the world had been through World War II, through the Holocaust, through the dropping of nuclear weapons, and of course in 1962, I can remember, as a boy, we were in the middle of a pretty nasty Cold War, a nuclear based Cold War between the United States and the Soviet Union. There was a lot of tension in the world generally. I think John XXIII's motive was how can we be fully committed to the gospel but at the same time, forge links between Catholics and Protestants, forge links between Christians and Jews, forge links between even serious-minded people who don't believe in God. I think there was even attempts to say look, even those who want a better world, want to work for truth and justice, even if they're not impelled by the love of God, we can establish some links with them. I think his desire was this council, as he says, other councils have used condemnations. Vatican II will use the medicine of mercy. Timothy George: Yeah. Thomas Guarino: That's famous. Timothy George: There's two words I would like for you to comment on. The one's French and one's Italian, often used to describe Vatican II, it's spirit, what you were just saying about John XXIII's vision. One is this French word "ressourcement," and the other one, "aggiornamento." Thomas Guarino: Right. Timothy George: Talk about those words, what they mean and how they apply to the council. Thomas Guarino: Well Timothy, you haven't even read the book but you're already reading my mind on this. I have a chapter dedicated to what I call the three key words of Vatican II, ressourcement, aggiornamento and development. All of them, in a sense are change words. I call them the change words of Vatican II because they indicate some kind of change in a different way. Ressourcement means going back to the sources. This had been gathering steam, in France especially, to some extent in Germany, but it was that if the Catholic Church were going to be renewed it had to be renewed through the Bible and through the early Christian writers. There was a tremendous, and there had been, of course, as you know, there had been great exegetical scholarship by great Protestant exegetes and some by Catholic exegetes, so there was an attempt to say how can this help to renew the church today? How can all the emphasis we have on the early church, the ancient Christian writers, how can this be brought to bear on the church? How can we open up the treasures of the gospel, open up the treasures of the early church? I'm reminded of the fact that in late 30s, and it's still going on today, some French authors had established a series called Source Creatine, and the idea was to put out cheap paperbacks of the early Christian writers, and they were worried. You said, you know French Marxists are using language like brotherhood, fraternity, justice. These are Christian terms, and we can't let the Marxists high jack Christian ideas so they said let's put into the hands of the French people cheap paperbacks of the ancient Christian writers so we can see the wealth of the early church. This was a big part of ressourcement, was to go back, go back to the Christian sources, preeminently the Bible and then the ancient Christian writers and use these to renew the church of today. Aggiornamento is a trickier word. It has to be properly understood because if you just translate from Italian, it simply means “being up to date.” Timothy George: I always think of that word, when you go to Italy, to Rome, everyone says, "Bon journo." Good morning. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Yeah. Timothy George: That's right in the middle of that word. Thomas Guarino: Absolutely. Timothy George: Hello. Good morning. Thomas Guarino: Absolutely. Timothy George: Wake up. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Being contemporary. Being contemporary. But of course, it can't be understood as simply adopting contemporary norms. It has to be understood as bringing the gospel to the contemporary world. I always say aggiornamento is a tricky word, if not ... because some people would say John XXIII wanted the church to be up to date. But they mean by that somehow adopt contemporary standards. That was not the intention. It was how to take the rich patrimony of the church and make it understandable to the men and women of our day. Timothy George: Would you agree with me that in both Catholicism and Protestantism, however, there have been people who have interpreted the work of the council and indeed theology on both sides of the confessional divide, exactly in that what you say is the wrong way. Thomas Guarino: Absolutely right, Timothy. I would say in the chapter of the book that I deal with that, I say the church has always in one sense been up to date. What I mean by that, if we look at the early Christian writers, they were not afraid to use some ideas from Plato. They were not afraid to use some ideas from Aristotle, but molded by the gospel, conformed to the gospel, not the other way around. There's nothing wrong with using contemporary ideas, however, always molded to the gospel, not molding the gospel to their image and likeness. John XXIII when he used that term aggiornamento, yes he was wanting the church to preach the gospel in a contemporary way, in a vivacious way, in an effervescent way to the world today, not simply to adopt contemporary standards, although Timothy is exactly right. The misinterpretation of that word has been rampant, and that's why I say it's tricky. I try to spend some time on it, unpacking it. Timothy George: Yeah. Well, you know John XXIII was really the heart and vision of the council in so many ways, though he died before it was completed and it had to be completed presided over by his successor, Paul VI. I wonder on John XXIII in particular, he was so in a way revolutionary it seems to me in how he set up the council. Because for one thing, he invited I think for the first time in the way that they function, Protestant observers, who were not just kind of bystanders. They were very thickly involved in the machinations of the decision-making. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Well, he was insistent on ecumenism, John XXIII. Of course, he established the secretariat for promoting Christian unity and raised it to the level of a conciliar commission, equal to all the other conciliar commissions. He was convinced, and he put at the head of it Cardinal Augustin Bea who was a very strong-willed German cardinal. Timothy George: Biblical scholar right? Thomas Guarino: And a biblical scholar. Bea was, and the secretary was Monseigneur Willebrands, a Dutch theologian who had been involved in ecumenism, and of course one from Germany, one from the Netherlands, so they had deep association with Protestant Christians. It was a very, very ... It became a very powerful committee and one that John XXIII wanted to see to be powerful, and to his credit, Paul VI continued that. Also, as Timothy mentioned, the Protestant observers, that's been one of the most delightful parts of my own research is to look at the Protestant observers because, well one of the things is, so much of the work of the council went on, as you would expect, behind the scene with theologians, and of course all the theologians knew one another. The vast majority of them were from Europe. They were French, German, Belgian, the Netherlands. I would say those would be the four countries where the most theologians were from. Protestant and Catholic, they had worked together for years on various things, and someone like Yves Congar had been involved in ecumenism since 1939, when he wrote a famous book, “Christendom Divided,” which was really a groundbreaking book because he basically said, "Look Protestantism has a lot of gifts, which we have to listen to as Catholics." In 1939, that was a fairly revolutionary thought. They had worked with men like Oscar Cullmann who was a very prominent, involved in all four sessions of the council, deeply involved, not just with the decree on ecumenism because for every document, which was discussed, it was presented in its draft stages to the Protestant observers for their remarks. They really had input on every document of the second Vatican council. They had significant influence. John XXIII wanted this, very badly. By the way, physically, they had the best seats in the house. I often say they were right up in the front of the altar of St. Peter's, just off to the left, so they were in a great spot. Timothy George: Now you mentioned the decree on ecumenism, which is one of the stellar documents of the Vatican council in terms of its impact on subsequent ecumenical work, and even to this very day. One of the big advances in the decree on ecumenism was the way in which Protestant Christians were now seen in a different light. Could you say a little bit about that? Thomas Guarino: Yeah, I certainly will Timothy. You know, we just had a beautiful worship service in the Hodges Chapel of the Beeson Divinity School, and I talked a little bit about that. There was a real emphasis at Vatican II, and I think this was a breakthrough by the council. It's not talked about too much, and I think one of the reasons is because Vatican II did not want to use scholastic language, because John XXIII thought this would block the people from understanding it. One of the points I make in the book is scholastic language is nowhere to be found in Vatican II, but one important scholastic idea that was used in analogy and that there's an analogical relationship among things which are similar but maybe not completely coincident. One of the things the decree on ecumenism really points out is there is so much analogical affinity between Catholics and Protestants on the foundational dimensions of the faith. Obviously the decree on ecumenism also talks about the hierarchy of truths, which is another issue, an important issue. I think the decree on ecumenism and the council itself, it said instead of looking as Protestant Christians as somehow dissidents, which is a word that had been used in formal documents prior to the council, that we should recognize that these men and women are our brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. Yes, we have some differences, even some important differences, but nonetheless, we are co-disciples of Jesus Christ and so we should emphasize in this document how close we are, not concentrate simply on flaws. I think the greatness of the decree on ecumenism was that emphasis on how close we are united in our faith in Christ and our faith in the Triune God and our faith in Scriptures. Timothy George: That has led in many ways, to a more than a co-belligerency I'd say. A real kind of coalition of the spirit and heart between Catholics and Protestants on so many of the issues. That's one of the things that you and I have worked together with other friends in Evangelicals and Catholics Together. That because of our shared faith in Christ, we also are called to a common witness in the world today. Thomas Guarino: Yeah, and I'd just like to say if I may, Timothy, just in response to this, there's a Lutheran/Catholic document. It just came out in 2017, called Commemoration of the Reformation. I'd just like to read the last three lines which I think applies to, even though it's about Lutherans, it applies to Catholics and Protestants in general. It says, "We should always remember the joint declaration which says Lutherans and Catholics," I would say Protestants and Catholics, "share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one mediator through whom God, in the Holy Spirit gives himself to us and pours out his gifts." I think, you know that beautiful statement of faith is saying, let's make that the basis of our unity. Christ is the rock of our unity, not just co-belligerency. Timothy George: I mentioned a while ago the Protestant observers that John XXIII included in the structure of the council. There were no Baptists among the Protestant observers, not because they weren't invited. The Baptist World Alliance was invited to send Protestant observers and the executive committee of the BWA debated this vociferously and declined the invitation. However, there was at least one Baptist who was present. His name was James Leo Garrett, a good friend of ours. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Yeah. Timothy George: Very well-known Southern Baptist professor. Taught at Southwestern Seminary for many years. Through the hospitality of the great Methodist theologian, Albert Outler, he was invited to come as a guest, and to sit, as you say, up front with the Protestant observers. He was there in 1965, in the very last session of the council, when the council adopted that document, “Dignitatis Humanae,” on religious freedom, the declaration on religious freedom. Now of course, for Baptists, religious freedom is one of those great cardinal ... Thomas Guarino: Sure. Timothy George: Points we can never say too much about. James Leo Garrett has been a strong advocate for religious freedom. He was there, which is a wonderful thing. I wonder if you would say a little bit about that document itself and the whole question of religious freedom at Vatican II, and how in some ways that was really another revolutionary effort. Thomas Guarino: Absolutely, because the document on religious freedom that Timothy refers to, Dignitatis Humanae, that that was, that was the first formal document by which the Catholic Church admitted the principle of religious freedom. One of the reasons that popes and the Church was afraid of it, they were afraid that religious freedom would mean, doesn't make any difference what religion you are. When you look at papal ... Timothy George: Relativism. Thomas Guarino: Exactly. When you look at papal documents condemning religious freedom, of which there are plenty, prior to Vatican II, popes always say this religious freedom, as if it doesn't make any difference if you're a believer in Christ, as if countries should just encourage people to be diverse religions. What they were protesting against was a kind of relativism, an egalitarianism that didn't make distinctions, and so I think when we look at Catholicism, was afraid of this. It was also afraid, the truth is, it was also afraid culturally. Catholicism has seen, traditionally, the state as having some role in fostering the true religion, as it was often referred to. That the state also should get involved, maybe perhaps in the education of children, that there should be religious education of children. Catholicism often made the argument in the past that, whether or not they become practicing Christians, if children have a religious education, this will help the state, because ultimately they'll be better people and they'll know the difference between right and wrong. They'll know the difference between virtue and vice. Might not follow it all the time, but they'll have learned it. Catholicism really was hesitant on this question of religious freedom, and it was in many ways, the American bishops who picked up the ball on this question, because really the ... Of course when the council was held wasn't too long after John F. Kennedy had run for president in 1960 in the United States and one of the charges was that Kennedy would be a puppet of the pope and that Catholicism really was not in favor of religious freedom. The American bishops at the council strongly pushed religious freedom, and it turned out to be a blessing. But you're absolutely right, Tim. It was a revolutionary, along with the decree on ecumenism. They were two revolutionary documents at the council. Timothy George: Now, as you know, because we've talked about it and you mentioned it in your address at Beeson today, we have been remembering the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, and in particular Martin Luther, who was and is a major figure, but also a controversial figure. Many Protestants have used the word celebrate. We celebrate the Reformation. We celebrate Martin Luther, and his great discovery of justification by faith alone and so forth and so on, whereas Catholics by and large, have wanted to say, well we can commemorate. I remember Cardinal Koch, who is the president of the pontifical council for promoting Christian unity and somebody said to him, "Are Catholics and Protestants going to celebrate the Reformation in 2017?" And he said, "Why no. You can't celebrate heresy. You can't celebrate sin." He didn't say, let's give him credit, that all the sinners were Protestants. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Timothy George: Maybe there's some sin to go around. But talk a little bit about Luther and the Reformation. How should we look at that as Catholics and Evangelicals together? Thomas Guarino: Yes. Good question, Timothy. I think, you know, as I said earlier today, I think Catholics have come to appreciate aspects of the Reformation. Obviously from a Catholic point of view, in retrospect, we would preferred if this had been done within the church, maybe like Francis of Assisi, who in the 13th century was a reformer. He was dealing with questions because you had different groups, sects, that were saying the church was not interested in the poor. The church was interested in amassing wealth. Francis kind of put on an old brown garment and tied it with a rope and went around in sandals, you know didn't have any money. Just begged money and preached the gospel. That was a kind of reform movement that took place in the 13th century. From a Catholic point of view, obviously we wish that Luther had done that, but for a lot of different reasons, things turned out differently. I certainly would say that Catholics see today, honor many aspects of the Reformation. Luther's attempt to put the Word of God in the hands of everyone certainly is something that Catholics honor and celebrate because this was an important attempt to disseminate the Bible to all people. His lifting up of the doctrine of justification, Catholics understand that today. This had to be, no one's justified by human effort. We're justified by Christ. Obviously, good works should flow from our justification. Timothy George: Which Luther also said. Thomas Guarino: Yeah. Which Luther also said, so this should be part of it, but we can't ... If we sinned on one hand by one time saying human effort, we don't want to sin now by saying don't worry about it, as long as you cling to Christ. There's two sides to the coin. I think there's much today in the Reformation that first of all, Vatican II held up. I often say, when I look at Vatican II, it tried to deal with two world-shaking events that Catholicism had simply judged negatively. One, the Reformation. Two, the Enlightenment. At Vatican II, it tried to say, look there are positive dimensions, especially to the Reformation, but even to the Enlightenment, there's positive dimensions. The Reformation, justification, emphasis on the Word of God, lots of emphases in the Reformation were right and the Catholic Church recognizes that today and Vatican II did. It tried to receive the Reformation, we say, in a Catholic way and to critically integrate it. Same thing with the Enlightenment. In many ways, religious freedom, it certainly didn't begin with the Enlightenment. There are plenty of early Christians who defended religious freedom, like Lactantius as say in one of our statements. Tertullian was a defender of religious freedom. Even Augustine, but the Enlightenment made this a principle. Vatican II, I think tried to say even the Enlightenment has something good, so let's look at some positive aspects of that as well. Timothy George: Now you and I have co-edited a book, which contains a number of the statements that have emerged from Evangelicals and Catholics Together. It came out, I think a year or two ago, “Evangelicals and Catholics Together at 20, Vital Statements on Contested Topics.” We're almost out of time but I wonder if we could spend a minute or two just talking about ECT, where it's come from and kind of the future of it. We're beginning a brand new project, and maybe you could say a little bit about that and what we hope will come out of it. Thomas Guarino: Good. Thank you, Timothy. Well, for listeners who are not familiar with Evangelicals and Catholics Together, I ask that you try to familiarize yourself with it. It was founded by Chuck Colson, great man of faith, great witness to Christ, great preacher, and Richard John Neuhaus, another great man of faith and writer. They did it to say we have to witness as Christians together, as evangelicals and Catholics, we have to witness to Christ to the contemporary world. This is what it was founded, it was founded ... Timothy and I often talk about this. It was not founded on the principle of co-belligerency. It was founded on Christ. That we're co-disciples of Christ and Christ is our foundation and rock of our identity. Because of our co-discipleship, we then say, how as Christians can we witness to the gospel in the world of today? ECT has, we often say we moved along two tracks, a theological track and a cultural track. In theology, we've dealt with issues such as justification, such as Scripture and tradition, the role of Mary, the Blessed Mother. And on the cultural side, we've dealt with issues such as pro-life. We've dealt with religious freedom. We've dealt with marriage. We've kind of dealt with all of these questions, religious freedom, as I said cultural issues and theological issues. Now, we have these statements collected in the book, which Timothy just mentioned. I ask you to familiarize yourself with it, but it's an ongoing project. I think in fact it's one of the most vibrant ecumenical dialogues around today, maybe the most vibrant because it's continuing. It's continuing to address important issues. We just decided that we're going to line up our next two most important issues. We will be treating first the gift of children, and obviously this is an important issue today. A lot of vectors come together here. Human life, marriage, the exercise of human sexuality, the acceptance of children as gifts. We're going to treat that, and then we're going to deal with the question of the church, which is a preeminently theological topic. What is the nature of the church? How is the church the body of Christ? How do we live as a church. You know, interestingly, it was many of the younger evangelicals who insisted that we take up a meaty theological topic. So God-willing, we ask for your prayers and God's blessings on our project. Timothy George: Well, it's been a joy to have you with us here at Beeson, and especially on the podcast today. Your new book is titled, “Vatican II, Corruption or Development? An Examination,” to be published very shortly be Eerdmans. So I encourage all of our listeners to check it out. You'll find it interesting, challenging, provocative in a good way, by one of the great Catholic thinkers and theologians of our time, Fr. Tom Guarino. Thank you so much, Tom. Thomas Guarino: Thank you Timothy. God bless, everyone. Thank you. Announcer: You've been listening to the Beeson Podcast with host Timothy George. You can subscribe to the Beeson Podcast at our website, beesondivinity.com. Beeson Divinity School is an interdenominational evangelical divinity school, training men and women in the service of Jesus Christ. We pray that this podcast will aid and encourage your work and we hope you will listen to each upcoming edition of the Beeson Podcast.